binman

Please no danger to the dees talk. i'll be too tempted to use a picture of him as my avatar

Good points well made BoB. I'm on drugs but they don't seem to be enhancing my performance. But surely you of all people could find some passion for one element of this story: the media spin, agendas and use of journos as mouthpieces. Fascinating stuff

Was just about to post that. What are the afl on about. Six months and back playing may?. What tosh. And what's this business about players coperating

One of my favorite dees player. Was great at fb. Was killing Matthews the day LM king hit him with ball miles away (and smithy looking toward ball)

This article slipped by this week. For me one of the things that has fascinated me about this whole saga is the reporting on it and the relentless pro Hird/EFC spin in the News Corp rags (amazing to think some people have claimed Hird has been hounded by the media). One journo whose reputation has really suffered is Mick Warner, he of the spectacularly wrong cricket score analogies (how embarrassing that must be for him). Further evidence of both pro Hird/EFC anti AFL/ASADA spin and Warner's reputation suffering can be found in this article: http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/internal-review-into-the-afls-handling-of-the-essendon-drugs-scandal-remains-a-mystery/story-fnelctok-1227245256270 A number of things come to mind; The fact the AFL has not released its internal review yet is not a news story, it's not even news worthy. Its not as if the AFL had said it would be released by a certain date and that date has passed As such it is an opinion piece and should be labelled as such (something Caro has been criticised for and has addressed) it is disingenuous as it states that the AFL responds to a question about the review without stating that Warner asks the question (to be fair that is my assumption) It is clearly designed to have a shot at the AFL and yet another dig at Demitriou (eg its use of quotation marks around template in this line: the “template” of future drugs probes ) which reinforces it should be an op ed piece In relation to the above point it is completely unbalanced. For example it takes a Gillon McLachlan quote (“You wouldn't do it the same way”) and uses it out context to suggest he is admitting the AFL (and specifically AD) were poor in their handling of the matter but fails to note that Justice Middleton was effusive in his praise for the approach the AFL took (and by extension AD) Again on the point of it just being a vehicle to whack the AFL masquerading as news it selectively highlights issues that the Newscorp hacks have previously criticized the AFL and AD for: 'backroom dealings between the former Gillard government, AFL executives and ASADA officials throughout the Essendon investigation", John Wylie "being drafted in, with the approval of Fitzpatrick, to help convince Hird to accept a 12-month AFL-imposed ban'', Hird being “offered a series of inducements including “an outstanding career development opportunity’’ in return for dropping legal action against the league'. It is a classic beat up and lazy to boot

Mods (or Billy2803) please delete post no 4 in this thread. Deeply offensive

From the other side 9a EFC fan who loves James), something to unite us: 'It still puzzles many Essendon fans as to why Hird was aggressively targeted and nominated as the architect. In today's complex management structures, Hird was on the periphery of the supplements program.' 'AAnd yet people still refuse to acknowledge simple facts such as his contrition about the supplements saga. Many claim Hird remains unrepentant, but he has apologised on three separate occasions –to the AFL Commission, to Essendon fans through the club website, and to the general public..' read here: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/james-hirds-essendon-story-has-yet-to-be-told-20150303-13sa71.html

Yes, except i always put all my bets on at the start of the day!

Sure. Though i haven't made any grandiose or black and white predictions about outcomes. If i were to make a prediction it would be a guess (as of course yours is) as i don't have sufficient information to determine the likely outcome. So with that in mind my guess is the players will be found guilty and given a 2 year ban, halved to 12 months (backdated to last competitive match) based on being duped. That will wipe out this season but not the next and they will be able to restart training in September when the 12 months elapses. The players will accept this penalty (under pressure from EFC who will have to pay all contracts) and sit out the year. Top up players will be brought in. ASADA will also accept this penalty as will WADA. There will be no further appeal. CAS will not be needed. The decision will be made not to penalise EFC any further as the argument will be the losing 17 players will be penalty enough when added to the penalties received for the governance breaches. There will be uproar about this. EFC will dismiss Hird, who in turn will sue EEFC for wrongful dismissal. Not sure if ASADA will go after Hird (or other coaches eg Goodwin?). I don't think they will or else they would have done so already. As you say we will see who is right (or more right as the case may be)

....as opposed to your conspiracy theories the tribunal is a kangaroo court that will do the AFL's bidding only to be over ruled by the big bad WADA wolf and their trusty allies the CAS....

Started off on fire getting the quinella in the first in Melbourne (having backed Galaxy Pegasus who just got nutted by Rommel, a 9-1 pop), backed 3 of first four winners in Sydney with a good go on Fist Seal (who is an out and out star i reckon). Snagged Alpine Lad (what a win!) but then it all went pear shaped. Had 3 legs of early quaddie one out into Dissident. Had backed Fontinon in the blue diamond a couple of weeks back (got 5-1) and it was woeful. And got no collects until the very last in Melbourne, Index linked. Broke even in the end which was disappointing given the start and probably suggests i got my staking wrong . But that's punting. Guineas is a great race this weekend. Am going away but will have a pre post dash

I respect your view but hold a different one. I think you are confusing/conflating the SCN stage with this one. In any case i think for my sanity and other DL poster's patience i think it is time we agreed to disagree and let it be. One final cooment: I hope James Hird ends up having to face the tribunal

Arrggghh! Thuis is not the case at all. The burden of proof is on ASADA, as has been established on this thread previously. The players only have to argue that ASADA's case is not strong enough to establish to the comfortable satisfaction of the tribunal they took banned substances.

Look clearly we have different views on this. Mine is that many people are asserting the players are cooked based on a belief that as you say ASADA have enough proof, circumstantial or otherwise, as well as a strong paper trail and interviews that we have not heard detail of. But unless you are directly involved in the case how would anyone know that this is true or how strong the evidence actually is? We do not know what evidence they have - we only know what it is rumored they have via leaks. Forgive me if i don't swallow every rumor that dribbles out. Yes ASADA got legal advice from apparently knowledgeable people that they had a good case but that is no guarantee at all that this evidence will be strong enough to pass the comfortable satisfaction test. I'm not saying they will get off. I'm simply saying no one on this site has a clue what is actually being argued, what the evidence is, what the defense is or what the prosecution case is. So how can definitive statements like they are cooked hold any value or stand the test of any intellectual rigor? The one thing we do know for a fact is that the tribunal has said it will take 4-6 weeks to reach a decision. If it was such a slam dunk, if the case against the players was so strong why on earth would it take this long? By the by if the players do get found guilty do us all favor Jnr, BB et al please don't say i told you so because a guilty verdict will not be proof of your assertion that it is a slam dunk, lay down misere.

Jeez if i knew Watts wasn't going to make it i would put my energy into getting him up there

I'm repeating myself but unless you are directly involved how would we know if there is or isn't proof exonerating players or that so far we have nothing? And in anycase the players don't need proof, ASADA do and we are even less sure if ASADA have the required proof - the confidence of a number of erstwhile DL posters nothwistanding

Let's hope the tribunal aren't Stones fans

...but yet it will take 4-6 weeks to weigh the evidence and come up with a result. Good thing it is an open and shut case or it would take 12 months to reach a decision

Great wrecker. How did you go last sat? In some ways I prefer autumn to spring because Sydney's carnival is stronger than in the spring and you get about 3-4 weeks where there is great races in both states. Can be a bit expensive though

Good call DC. The simplest explanation is usually the right one

Yes, good points well made. I guess i suspect the confusion has been driven by the EFC spin machine - perhaps to put the blame on the big bad Danks, something he is now pushing back on

Mandee you are probably right. I'm not arguing that their records are woeful. What i'm saying is that for months (now years?) there seems to be this general acceptance that the EFC have no records and that is the line that is being pushed. Why i ask? What is the motivation? I suspect that as you say the records are perhaps shoddy but i very much doubt ASADA have not been able to find incriminating records and that their case includes reference to them

By the by. EFC dispute much of what was in the charge sheet. The EFC negotiated a penalty and the charges were never tested.

Yes, yes i have read the charges. To be clear they do not state no records were kept, which is the line being pushed and swallowed. Perhaps some are too lazy for independent thought? You maintain that Essendon has said they have no records. Prove it.

Yes i know the above. But again none of the above means they did not keep any records, which is the line the media and many others have been spinning. I have searched and have yet to find any official statement from ASADA, EFC or the AFL that they had no records.