DeeSpencer

I'd say Vick is done with the eagles unless Foles has a huge dip in form. That said I'm not convinced Foles is the man for them either but I'd keep him as the presumptive started and hit the draft again. Vick should be out looking for work and might make sense backing up a read option QB in Washington, Seattle or even the 49ers. As for the NFC East what you really need to do is call up Indy and ask to swap with them in to the AFC south. Imagine 6 games a year against Tenn, Houston and Jacksonville. That's the gift that keeps on giving. At least the poor old NFC East has decent QB's in Romo, Manning and RGIII to navigate.

Trade successes: Maric, Jacobs, Mumford and wait and see on McEvoy and Hickey (and Longer) Trade fails: Meesen, Cam Wood, Renouf, Seaby, wait and see on Hampson My point about trading from either direction - buying or selling - is it can be positive for both arguments. Overall from 2004 to 2008 all young rucks drafted in the top 30 either became their teams starting ruck or at some point were traded away for a pick of some value. That tells me picking a ruck in the top 30 is a reasonably sound investment. I'd wait a few years to see where Gawn, Spencer, Clark and Fitzpatrick end up but from then on I'd be more than happy if the club used a high draft pick on a ruck. In the mean time I'd be just as happy putting an 18 year old on the rookie list as some state league 25 year old because more young guys seem to make it long term than back up old guys. The exception to that is I'd be very interested to get one of these big american lads that Roos has been working with at the swans academy.

Ahhh November, the month that so often sees Jay Cutler go from hero to zero. Played injured when he shouldn't have which you respect but also frustrates. He still played ok and a huge part of this loss is on the fact we just couldn't run the ball this week. Was the week for dominant front 7 defense though with Carolina and St Louis getting it done. Oh and Strafford I don't want to make things worse but there's a big fat sleeper team out west with one hell of a defense, one hell of a rookie head coach and a good friend of yours no doubt at QB. GB and CHI have hit the skids with injury. The NFC East dont deserve 1 play off spot yet alone a WC. And the Carolina bandwagon is powered by the defense but steered by Cam Newton and Riverboat Ron. A visit to Jacksonville (they wouldn't dare go 2 in a row would they?) will see the Cardinals move to 6-4, they couldn't possibly take an NFC wild card could they? Are you on the Carson Palmer express yet Strafford?

Disagree on Morton. He wasn't much but their was a reason he racked up plenty of touches in his first couple of seasons. It was usually a hand ball receive or chip kick out wide but he did work pretty hard to get the ball. In fact in 08 I often though how come Morton seems to know to spread out wide to get loose possessions but none of the rest of our players understand that! But back to Garlett I think most of the gun small forwards these days have one or more of 3 additional attributes: - Top class defensive work (ie. Rioli) - Strong marking (Lindsay Thomas, Michael Walters, Chad Wingard, Le Cras) - Elite blistering Speed (Jeff Garlett) If you don't display any of them then you have all the class in the world like a Chris Yarran and really not be all that dangerous unless you can rotate into the midfield. Considering Garlett is miles away from AFL midfield ability fitness wise my thoughts are you are looking at a classy but pretty average small forward in the making with doubts you'll ever get to midfield exposure. And therefore other small forwards might offer the same impact without half the drama. And for Melbourne I think we should consider the other smalls or the best available midfielder much higher than worrying about this guy for pick 40

Might be easier to find people who think Nicho can tag. Tagging obviously involves a tremendous physical ability, you have to have the top line fitness and work ethic to run stride for stride with the elite midfielders and the speed to match it with them some what (although depending on opponent speed is not nearly as important). But you also have to have the footy smarts to be able to read the play, to have very good physical strength (if tagging a strong inside player) and courage. Nicholson fits the first categories but is a mile off in the second categories.

My point is 12 out of 18 rucks were drafted and developed over time and picked at age 20 or younger. 5 more were traded for. Only 1 other (Pike) was drafted as a mature age player and he still took 4 years to show anything good. Therefore your original point that said "We should not draft a teenage ruck with an early pick or in the ND" seems to me to be completely wrong as the majority of clubs (particularly if you include Smith as value of a likely early ND pick and Hickey as a ND pick) took teenage rucks and developed them in to their starters. 2004 draft - 8 Meesen (probably wouldn't have made it but injury ruined his career), 18 Cam Wood. Both players did get traded for reasonable picks at some stage 2005 draft - 7 Ryder, 18 - Bailey. Quality ruck who can play forward, premiership ruck who could've been better and for longer if not for shocking injury luck 2006 draft - 4 Leuenberger, 17 Hampson, 24 Renouf. So a gun, a pretty average player who still got traded for a low 30's pick and a premiership player who then got traded away for something 2007 draft - 1 Kreuzer, 9 McEvoy 17 Lobbe - 3 starting ruckman who can all impact games 2008 draft - 2 Nic Nat (gun) 14 Cordy (F/S), 25 Redden - more touch and go here but these guys aren't fully matured yet Above is the rucks picked in the top 30 from those drafts. In fairness it's actually more consistent than some of the key forwards and other positions taken in the draft. Consider 2004's wipe out. Those rucks are probably better than Mathew Bate and Adam Pattison as key forwards. It seems to me if you draft a ruck high up and develop him a bit at worst you'll get a return when trading as clubs will look to get the real value steal of a slow developing ruck (ie. Maric at Richmond). But Renouf, Meesen and Cam Wood showed trading for a ruck may be harder than drafting one.

He's very raw. Brisbane could reach at pick 7 but can't see the pies doing it at pick 6. If Brisbane get him at 7 then that provides us with a very interesting choice at pick 9 I would figure. I do like McCarthy, but he strikes me as a classic tall who gets drafted between pick 6 and 20 due to the flashes on brilliance and potential and could end up very good or could end up on the scrap heap in a few years time. I'm pretty glad we're openly interested in the midfielders this year. I'm hoping it leaves up taking a solid safe footballer and letting Roos do his work to see how far he can develop him.

Adel - Jacobs - originally rookie, traded for picks 34 and 67 Bris - Leueny - pick 4 Carl - Kreuzer - pick 1 Coll - Grundy - pick 20 Essendon - Ryder/Bellchambers - Pick 7, PSD Freo - Sandilands - rookied aged 20 Geel - Dawson Simpson - pick 34 Gold Coast - Zac Smith - Queensland zone selection as teenager, would've been a high pick GWS - Mumford - rookied aged 21, traded for pick 35 Hawthorn - McEvoy - originally pick 5, traded for pick 18 Melbourne - Gawn drafted pick 34 or Jamar rookie pick aged 19 North - Todd Goldstein - pick 37 Port - Lobbe - pick 16 Richmond - Maric - drafted at pick 40, traded for pick 37 St Kilda - Hickey, original zone selection, traded with pick 24 for pick 12 Sydney - Mike Pyke - signed at age 24 as a rookie, took until age 28 to really show his talent in 2012 West Coast - Nic Nat - pick 2 Will Minson - Pick 20 So the majority of the league drafted their first choice ruck with high picks. A few clubs traded in but usually paid a decent price and the original club often got a return on investment. Their are a bunch of back up rucks from later pathways but the majority of the best rucks in the country showed talent at 18 and were developed from there. So the only guys 21 or older when drafted who are now first rucks are Mumford and Pyke. And their are exceptional circumstances to both I would argue. For one Pyke had never heard of the game and was playing rugby. If he was born in Australia he might have been drafted at age 18 with his physical traits. And Mumford was sucking down 15 sausages until he was aged 20 and moved from country footy to Geelong VFL. So I'm firmly in the case of drafting rucks if they are value in the late second or third round or even earlier if you have a Grundy fall in your lap or an outrageous talent like Leueny or Nic Nat. I'm certainly in the case of trading for a ruck if you get your timing right and get value ie. Maric, Jacobs or Mumford (or Jolly before that). But I'm not convinced you can sit back and wait for a mature state league ruck to come good then be drafted and expect a top player. I don't see Tom Derickx, Jack Hannath, Jon Giles or Dan Currie's name on this list do you?

Taller players do take longer to develop but hey call it a cliche if it suits your rubbish thread

Teams that work hard and play hard still beat the team that only play hard and probably enjoy their work a lot more than the team that only works hard.

Blease is way quicker than Riley but I'd back Riley to run down and tackle Blease rather than the other way any day of the week. Look at Blease in that photo holding his head and body back and reaching with his arms. Sickening

That SANFL stats are undeniable that he's a clearance machine. And every likelihood points that when fit he could win his fair share of clearances at AFL level. That does not mean he's lauded as a future star. In my mind it's not much different to saying Max Gawn is really tall or Jack Fitzpatrick has elite speed for a man of 200cm.

Unlikely I'd say. NSW scholarships were given out to guys when they were 15 or 16 and then they were developed by the AFL club, no real swans link like the new Academy set ups. There's more chance it was a Neil Craig crows tip who would've known him from his days coaching their and recognised talent. I would think the club has been monitoring out of contract midfielders not getting games from clubs with deep midfields (ie. Michie at Freo) since early in the season. The early selection before the draft/rookie draft indicates the likelihood of another offer and with Essendon having Craig and Simon Goodwin it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted a depth clearance midfielder given their lack of draft picks. Or possible Matt Rendell providing input at Collingwood. Adelaide were certainly right at the top of the list in terms of teams with excess of promising if not star midfielders. Guys like Lyons, Grigg, Kerridge, Crouch to go with the bigger names. Hence why they sent us Vince when the deal suited them and delisted Riley despite him showing plenty of talent. The injury certainly cost against him. Much like us losing patience with Petterd when we had so many similar types of under performing flankers and him constantly being injured.

Presume that photo is in his first year or so.Fast forward a couple of years later and he has plenty of size. Unlike Gysberts I'm tipping Riley has improved physically since his first year AFC AUCTIONS ONLINE

Really the recruiting team have balanced up who will be available at pick 57 compared to Riley and gone with Riley. I don't think it's about not rating who've we have assembled but recognizing despite the 4 big additions (Vince, Cross, Tyson, Michie) we delisted 4 pure midfielders as well (Magner, Couch, Rodan, Taggert). So we hadn't really added depth. Just replaced the depth who weren't up to AFL standard with 4 guys who will be who now force competition on the likes of Matt Jones, Evans, McKenzie and Toumpas. Riley is the first addition that adds depth in numbers from last year. Pick 9 will be the next addition.

PLAYER RATINGS - AIDAN RILEY So he's played a few decent games at AFL level. And he's a consistent ball and clearance winner at SANFL and still young enough and with the right mix of skills and athleticism to develop the outside game. Even if he doesn't we can't just rely on Viney, Tyson and Michie, we have to develop the next line of clearance players as well. Overall even despite the injury set up I'm much more impressed having Riley on our list than Magner.

Last week they were running at the end. Today I missed the running and they did light skill work at the end. I think a mix is probably the best. But as of right now I'd say Misson is taking a bit of pressure off whilst the players come back and just getting the legs warmed up and letting the players get used to Roos and the other coaches. It's what he's said and it's how it looks. I expect it will be similar for the next week or so before a heavy block of training heading in to Christmas break. I think Misson last year realised that the players got the miles in the legs but might have been fatigued both mentally and physically by the start of the year.

No incorrect. (unfortunately)

Rookie upgrades count as picks so right now we will have pick 9, pick 40 and then read out Clisby's name as the 3rd draft pick with pick 57 or whatever it is.

From my name a rookie rookie thread.Big fan of this guy. Real tackling and contested ball midfielder and whilst skills aren't amazing he's got the speed and X factor to be handy forward or on the outside. Unfortunately broke his ankle just when he got his chance this year for the crows and therefore he'll take a while to rehab but I presume the Only worry is have we overpaid by adding him to the main list when we could've waited for him to become a rookie but really I think he's worth it and I expect strong showing at Casey at least in the second half of the year once he's fit. I'm not so worried about a better player being available at pick 57 but more worried about a repeat of last year when we get a Hannath on board for our first rookie pick and someone trumps us in the PSD.

Disagree. Because ruckman take longer does not mean you shouldn't take one when available. I agree you have to be cautious with early picks but I bet Grundy for Collingwood goes up and down over the next few years but will likely be good value long term. I'm all for drafting young rucks even if they sit on the list for years without doing much because you've got 44 spots and you've got time to give them AFL development. Sandilands and Cox might have taken a while in the system to get good but they were still in the system. There's no guarantee that if they were playing local footy or WAFL reserves that they ever would've got their skills and body up to standard. And Gawn was our best ruck for a fair stretch of this year it was just Clark's injury and Fitzpatrick's ruck skills not being developed meant we couldn't over stretch big Max. So he might not have commanded a best 22 spot but he's still been contributing. I hope we rookie a ruck this year with the lack of talent of smaller players apparent in this draft I think it's worth taking a speculative big boy and giving him a year to see what we get from it. Whether that ruck is aged 18 or 24 doesn't fuss me too much.

Went passed at about 10 and stayed for an hour until they finished. Unsighted (by me): Gawn, Vince, Cross, Jones, Strauss, Blease, Kent, McKenzie, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Jetta, Bail 2 or 3 different rehab groups with players swapping in and out doing a variety of running and light skills. Hogan, Michie, Spencer, Evans, Viney, Nicholson in one but all looking pretty good. Jamar doing a little kick to kick then running a few laps. Byrnes doing a few sprints. Brett Allison took a drill with basic kick to kick 25m apart but before each kick the players would do a figure of 8 drill with short steps then move forward a step and kick the ball. Thought it was a very innovative drill to make basic kicking much more game like. Tommy McDonald took part in that drill. Poor Spencer is still all over the shop with basic kicking. Tapscott and Tyson looked the furthest back of the rehab group they just did laps and headed off. Tyson has a big frame though, he'll be a 90kg mid when he fills out. I think it's time Tapscott tells the fitness staff that his career is on the line and gets in to main training. Whatever is wrong with him this endless rehab group isn't helping his footy. Back in the main group they did a few hand ball drills picking the ball off the deck and spreading it around. Looked very much like Roos is starting with the basics which makes sense. Then moved in to some relaxed kicking around a triangle then a square. It was pretty windy and the kicking looked decent considering that and the time of year. Just looked like a light drill to finish off. Watts' kicking stood out as did Mitch Clark's bounce and energy. Toumpas moved well in the handball drills. Todd Viney came out at 11 and got a minute of silence going and after that it was pretty much done. Michie and Viney (jnr) finished the session with a few more laps. Hogan did some 300m run throughs. All 3 looked to be moving well.

I just think it's a bad pre snap read to throw in to 2 deep safties then once the play unfolds he should see the underneath coverage and be even more scared as he then can't be long or deep. Much safer to take a shot out wide or angle in at the seems between the corners and safeties that the linebackers probably wont be covering as they'll be up watching AP. And deep balls down the middle don't test true arm strength as much as the deep darts between the seems and down the sides because the only way to catch them generally is to put air up under the ball. You see QBs throw fast and deep and over throw receivers all the time. If you've got a good receiver you are much safer to put some air under it, the proviso being the guy is double covered. All in all it was a poor play call, poor read and poor throw and a typical Ponder mistake. But he came back an played great (Or good enough to torch Washington's rubbish defense) anyway so 1 mistake per game can be tolerated.

Luke Tynan and Danny Nicholls are reasonable losses where are they heading? Reliable defender and top midfielder. And the other thing overlooked in Melbourne's trading period is that it's 4 mids in - Vince, Cross, Michie, Tyson but it's 4 mids Sylvia, Rodan, Couch and Magner out. That's 3 of Casey's best right there. The upside for Casey will likely be that instead of Couch and Magner just going through the motions down there it will now be a mixture of guys like Evans, Matt Jones, Blease, Tapscott who should fill the Casey midfield. It might be more up and down without reliable veteran VFL performers but also has good up side. Casey will benefit from true pressure for spots. And currently 1 or 2 very good VFL rucks in Jamar/Gawn/Spencer and guys like Pedersen and Fitzpatrick sit outside the Melbourne best 22. Not so much depth without VFL stalwarts like Sellar, Gillies and Davis but again a good opportunity for young kids be they from Casey or Melbourne to hold down key position spots. I think young guys fresh out of TAC in the last few years should see Casey as a tremendous opportunity to get senior VFL games with the chance of Paul Roos watching. I'd almost be surprised if one of Melbourne's first 3 picks goes for a mature ager given Jason Taylor has said the state league talent has been thinned out a bit but to counter that I'd expect at least 1 of the rookie spots in a shallow draft might be used on mature aged type and that will be good news for Casey!

4th tier. The WAFL is probably below VFL and SANFL but they are all second tier comps. I disagree on McKenzie. His defensive work will be critical to the Roos game plan I believe and he'll be a standard setter as long as he is the best defensive midfielder on our list. But I do agree that Michie will be above Bail due to clearance ability and skills and will be above Evans if his fitness level is comparable. Part of the reason Michie wasn't getting a game at Freo is because they were developing his running ability with time. Evans has a similar poor history with injury but right now I believe is in the main group whilst Michie is in an advanced rehab group with Viney and Hogan. Running ability is paramount for the midfield and can't be faked. Hopefully with good preseasons Michie and Evans are both up to AFL level as runners. Same for Matt Jones and Toumpas.