DeeSpencer

Extra speed/fitness compared to Gus means he can run well on the wing or half forward but his kicking is just as bad. At this stage he’s looking like a similar player to Langdon.

Nash hasn't shown anything yet, I wouldn't have any interest. O'Brien maybe, but he just started to look like a regular in the Hawks side so they probably aren't keen to give him up.

Whilst I agree with your point Grimes is lightening quick and Broad has very good pace too. And of course Rance if fit. Pies - Moore and Howe. GWS - Corr and Haynes. Brisbane - Gardiner has the speed on the lead. Anyway, May is a super quick full back who can play small or tall, finding a speedy back pocket will be important if Jetta doesn't have much left will matter too. But not as much as the mids, forwards and even another back flanker.

No point overpaying a limited player, we'll do that enough with free agents, if we can get something for Frost instead of signing him up to an expensive deal then dropping him to the VFL then I can live with that. If Hawthorn are willing to pay him more than we are then you'd think there's at least a 3rd round pick coming back. 2nd rounder is optimistic but we can hope.

Taranto is 21, will be 22 next season and just signed on until 2022. Nice idea, but the Giants aren't letting him go. I'm not convinced he'll be a 1 club player but the Giants can't afford to lose him after Finlayson's grand final and Himmelberg's quiet September. He'd also be so expensive in a trade you'd almost ask him to become a free agent. A team can't afford to pay him 2 million a season and trade the picks required to get him as well. Personally I don't think he's worth it but you'd offer him 10 mil over 5 years from 2021 if you wanted him.

There's no reason to deviate from the future 2nd round pick offer until it gets to AFL mediation with 60 seconds left in the trade period. Ed Langdon knows how business works. He knows we want him and will pay him handsomely. Just relax and wait this one out. At some stage Freo will have to decide if they want a fair offer of a future 2nd or if they want to risk getting nothing.

Why did someone bump this thread from last year?

Yep that's why I'd have a word. Going to Essendon with Worsfold is far different to going with Rutten. Meanwhile he'd be in a nice position at Melbourne if we did the one in one out that St Kilda, North and Carlton have done, plus we're at such a position on the ladder now that he'll get credit for making us better even if we barely improved!

Valid point, my only counter to that is Caldwell as an inside mid will be behind Coniglio, Hopper, Taranto, De Boer, most likely Ward and whatever combinations of Kelly, Whitfield, Greene and Williams rotate in. Plus they'll be adding Green. If he sits in the NEAFL all year he's not helping them win games and is losing trade value. Meanwhile they can get a forward or back flanker to replace him. If I was them I might like Young just as much as Caldwell and Young has a chance to replace Heath Shaw in their best side within 2 years. Of course the problem for us is Caldwell might be stuck behind Viney, Gus, Oliver etc for a midfield spot immediately as well but if he's as good as pick 3 and we get some extra picks thrown in then it's worth it.

Just remembered about Tomlinson compo, we could be paying him overs to create an extra draft pick for GWS to then give back to us in the pick 3 deal. That would be clever. Salary for a draft pick. If we can bump Tomlinson's compo from after their 2nd round pick to after the first round then we're doing them a huge favour. As you've suggested I'd do pick 3 and a future 2nd (20-30) for Caldwell (rough value pick 10), pick 12 and pick 18. If we do them a favour on Tomlinson and they suddenly get pick 20 in compensation instead of pick 38 then they might give us an even better deal. Then I think we should look to move pick 12 in to the top 10 (depending on how we rate the kids). I'm a fan of trading down but you have to get an A grader with the trade. Tyson was never an A grader. Caldwell might be. No a grader, no deal.

Every year I like to do this as an exercise to see where our list shapes up and how we can catch up with the premiers. The usual caveats are: 1. You can't ever copy a side, you'll never be as good as they are, plus the game always evolves 2. We've got our own strengths to build around as well. But you have to at least be taking the positives from their style when you can and adapting to trends before you're stuck miles behind. So.... FB: Short Grimes Broad HB: Houli Astbury Vlastuin C; Caddy Cotchin Ellis HF: Lambert Riewoldt Bolton FF: Rioli Lynch Castagna Foll: Soldo Martin Prestia Int: Baker Edwards Nankervis Pickett Backline: Grimes: Best equivalent May. Other options: Forst. Role: Plays like an NFL free safety where he sits deepest so he can prevent out the back goals and can then man up dangerous forwards once inside 50. Pace and spoiling are key components, but reading the play is vital too, to know when to attack. Some intercept marking and reliable ball use important too. Grimes taking over from Rance and being just as good was huge for the Tigers this year. Broad: Frost. Options: Hibberd, J Smith. Hore. Role: Plays a mixture of zone and man. Has to have the height to man talls who come off Grimes and up the ground. Reading the play and winning or halving contests are vital here. Ball use not as important. The strong safety for NFL fans. Astbury: Oscar Mc. Options: Frost, Lever, Weideman, Petty. Astbury takes the marking CHF and plays them pretty tight. Whilst the other defenders zone he's often tasked with a man, but does have to know when to handover and when to hand back. Many fans will be underwhelmed but Oscar is probably the most suited to this role. It's one I'd like to see Weideman trialled in. Vlastuin: Lever. Options: Hibberd, Hore, Harmes, Brayshaw. The middle linebacker of the backline, he's in absolutely everything. Any attempt to get through Richmond's backline involves getting through Vlastuin. He reads the play exceptionally, is a super strong interceptor (particularly for his size) and defender in the air, uses the ball well without being a great kick. Short: Jetta. Options: Hibberd, Hunt, J Wagner. Played deeper this year with Grimes moving in to Rance's role, so had more lock down jobs but is also a really good kick and has the agility to get out of trouble. Houli: Salem. Options: J Wagner, Jones, Hibberd. The quarterback, mainly zones off high half forwards and gets a stack of the ball and uses it perfectly. Baker: Harmes Options: Hunt, Spargo, Sparrow, Hibberd, Jordon. Very much the 7th defender Baker was really used in rotations to provide the relentless run and cover needed to fill the zones and provide support running that powers the Tigers rebounding game. Neat kick, good handballer, zippy, hard at it and good enough defensively (air and ground depsite a few errors in the prelim). Forwardline: Riewoldt: Weideman. Options: Petty, Melksham. Jack does a bit of everything these days. Leads up, chops and changes deep, tackles, knocks the ball on. Probably plays more like the 2nd banana but can also have his moments. Lynch: Tom McDonald. Options: Petty, Preuss. The main targets inside 50 who can do things on the ground but his best work is launching at the footy with strong leads and strong hands. Reliable set shot as well. Castagna: Fritsch. Options: Melksham, Hannan, J Smith. A speedy 3rd marking tall. Misses a lot of goals but makes up for them with defensive pressure. His ability to compete in the air for his size really adds value to the team. Rioli: Lockhart. Options: Hannan, Spargo, Chandler, Bedford, C Wagner. Rioli does some good things with the ball but I think it's his pressure and then link up work that gives most of his value. Low possessions, high impact. Bolton: Chandler. Options: Hannan, C Wagner, (maybe J Elliott). Another pressure small, does a bit more in the air and can provide some midfield time Lambert: ANB. Options: Jones, Melksham, C Wagner, Lockhart, Harmes. Contest to contest run, run and more run, with some goal kicking and ball use, plus midfield rotations if need be. Midfield: Soldo. Gawn. Soldo really took off as a tap run with some sneaky around the ground moves. Good player. Split time with Nank but I'd have him as the number 1. Cotchin. Viney. Options: Brayshaw, Harmes. Very much still the heart and soul despite less role with the ball. He's ability to pressure and set the physical tone stands out. Prestia: Oliver. Options: Brayshaw, Viney. The most prolific Tiger mid this year because his movement around stoppages is superb and he wins the ball when it's there. Took his kicking to new levels over the last two years, far more balanced and in control. Edwards: Brayshaw. Options: Salem, Lockhart. The glue in the Richmond side with sneaky fast handballs which Gus might be able to recreate. Defensively very sound for a slight body. Only Salem could get close to his overall ball use. Martin: Petracca. Options: Oliver, Melksham. Just a freak, knows when to go in to the middle, when to bob up around half forward and when to get the one on one deep and use it to full advantage. Caddy: Tomlinson. Options: Vanders, Melksham, Harmes, Jordon. The bigger body winger who is defensively sound at the clearances and then provides marking help forward or back. Endurance and positioning are vital. Ellis: ?Langdon. Options: Stretch, JKH, Baker. The gut running wingman who works super hard to get back and then to provide an option. Ball use and overhead ability is a bonus but just hard running to the right spots is so much of the job. Pickett: Oskar Baker. Options: Harmes, Vanders, C Wagner, Sparrow. A wing/midfield/forward player but I sense the Tigers treat this spot based on who gets picked. The plan was for Graham as a tagger/defensive mid but Pickett came in and got to play with freedom and use his pace. It's why I went with Baker as I think he's a guy we just have to get games in to and we can use him as a burst player in low minutes. Has to get fitter and improve his tackling/defensive stoppage work but the upside is high. Nankervis: Melksham. Options: Preuss, Dunkley, Sparrow, C Wagner. Very much the 22nd man for the Tigers I'd expect we'd try to get a player who can play forward/mid to add to versatility given Gawn can ruck 80% and we can use Tomlinson or key forwards to cover so the best replacement is someone who offers a bit up forward but can also mix it in the midfield. Weaknesses/Differences Backline: If Frost goes then we're short that 2nd and 3rd tall option who can swap on to the key forwards, he's not really a zone player anyway. Meanwhile Lever is probably too much of a zone player to ideally suit the Astbury or Broad roles, hence I had him in the Vlastuin role. Jetta and Hibberd are both better in the air than Tigers smalls but they don't have the same rebound. And I'm not sure there's a young player on the list capable of the Baker role. Harmes back is an option I like but it's putting an important midfielder in to a spot that could be filled with some smart recruiting or development. Midfield: Do we get Langdon, is Tomlinson quick enough to tackle and chase smalls effectively? Can our inside bulls sharpen up their defensive work and ball use - can they sharpen up at all! Is Baker a midfield pace option, are the forwards? Can we be skilled and pressure well enough that we can spare Salem and Harmes to play back or wing. If not then what do we do with Brayshaw - can he play half back? Forwards: Obviously the big key forwards are lacking but have proven capable in finals in 2018. Can ANB get his ball use and hardness over the pill to the level required to be the next Lambert he has the tank. Who else is forward is capable of some midfield rotations so that Petracca can roll forward.

Highly regarded in the industry but I'm a little doubtful on Freo really doing their due diligence if they've hired a former player and only interviewed 2 other candidates, both of whom had Freo connections and seemed long shots. We should probably look at Dean Solomon, sometimes the best coaches can get hidden away at bad locations and if he's been grinding away at the Suns for years and still got recognition then he might know a few things. A bit like Richmond wisely giving Leppa another go.

We've been awful quiet on getting shafted. Obvious answer is the AFL has our nuts in a vice with cash. Hopeful answer is part of the Suns rescue package was a quid pro quo with us. Could pick 3 for Ben King be the sweetener? (I doubt it but a man can dream).

Not these days, but it certainly would've been part of the problem in 2011-2014. In 2010 we were really building something, the easy answer is to say the tanking itself had made the culture rotten, I don't think it had. Most clubs would've moved onwards and upwards from there, instead we went backwards at the rate of knots because the club was so under resourced.

Have you seen the contract numbers thrown around with Papley - they are huge. And the reason he wants a big contract, well I've heard rumours he's in need of some money, possibly like some other traded players of late. Warning bells there. As for Jack Martin - I'm a bit of a sceptic. He's now played a lot of years of nothing footy, has to be considered a gamble and I don't want to gamble that kind of money on him either. There's also the issue of the salary cap. I don't think any of our overpaid players are trade-able for anything like good value. Who are we paying too much for - Tom McDonald, Brayshaw, Viney, Lever - we have to keep all of them unless we want to trade them away for 2nd round picks and pay salary. I think we desperately need pace and run through the midfield or we wont' be able to defend. You can have 60 inside 50's but you won't win if the other team has 40 and scores a goal every time because your midfield leaks like a sieve. You can't put on forward pressure or play an aggressive backline zone without the midfield sealing the gaps. Yes to plans B+C with goal kickers and pressure players (preferably both in one). Dan Butler for a cheap deal aside I'm not seeing a lot on the market.

We had more top draft picks in 2007, 08, 09 than any other club I'd imagine - Richmond were the only one who would be close. Unfortunately we were operating with a football department and club without anything close to the resources. We were left behind when the rich clubs started spending money and the AFL had so much cash that they didn't know what to do with that they invented 2 whole new clubs. Our supporters rallied for the debt demolition campaign but that was only to get us back in the game. The likes of Morton, Grimes, Maric, Trengove, Gysberts, Tapscott, Watts, Strauss and Blease should be [censored] as hell they were drafted to Melbourne and weren't given proper facilities, proper coaching or proper fitness/medical staff. The same issues that hindered Gold Coast's start up hurt that generation of our players. The only ones who made it through - Gawn and Jetta - spent most of the time injured. Oh and what was our reward for taking all those draft picks so we were prepared for the new clubs - we were slandered in the media for tanking years after the event, furthering a rift between the coaches and administration. Our club name was turned to mud for doing the same thing several clubs had and have done since. Where were our handouts in 2012-2014? We were as bad if not worse than the Suns are now and instead were given a small amount of extra funding for Roos and told to trade, draft and develop our way back. We had to give up prime draft picks and list spots for Tyson, Vince, Hibberd, Melksham, Frost, Garlett, Cross etc to get back to being a competitive side. Now the Suns can have their cake and eat it too? They can trade draft picks for experienced players whilst still getting access at the top of the draft. Damn right I'll say it's unfair.

Absolute farce. To gift them pick 2 and then throw in 3 more picks, plus the unknown benefits the academy picks could become, plus extra rookie spots. This is disgraceful. It either goes 2 ways for the suns: 1. They squander this and ruin the careers of 4 footballers for no reason 2. It works out and they become a super team comparable to GWS and the AFL have both of their darlings in the top 4 for years to come. Outrageous.

Former AFL players like Corey Wagner were able to opt out of the draft ahead of time and sign as pre-season supplemental players. Guys like Lockhart and Stack had to be entered in to the the 2018 drafts and not be selected before they became eligible. Will be interesting to see what happens with mature age recruits. The chatter before the mid season draft was that the state leagues had been pretty heavily raided the last few years and that there wasn't much talent left. That said, Pickett's success in the grand final will probably see every team scrambling to make absolutely sure of it. I can't see a 60+ goal forward lasting until after the drafts if he's got anything like AFL level athleticism.

Has something changed between last year and this year? Last year it was only players who were formerly on AFL lists who could sign via that method. Everyone else had to go through the drafts first no matter how many times they've been overlooked in drafts.

Big difference between a 23 year old ruckman and a 26 year old key defender who played in junior squads and has spent a long time on lists at two different clubs. The upside to Frost was this year. Defending improved, marking drastically improved, short kicking was better. Decision making still awful.

The game is getting way faster and we're going to sign Dom Tyson's good mate to replace the missing spot Dom Tyson filled in the side? With many of the same faults. Signing him on any more than the average way does raise a pretty big question about how we are ever going to bridge the gap in speed the Tigers have on us.

Why exactly would the Suns want pick 3 to draft an inferior player to Ben King? There's not a lot of logic there. They'll get a good pick or picks for him next year if he wants to leave, in the meantime they can improve a fair bit next year and try to convince him to stay. Seeing him sprint by Frosty in the GF sprint (with some quick players behind as well) shows he's a heck of a prospect and both he and Max could've gone picks 1 + 2 in a draft most years. From what I've Ben would easily go pick 3 in the draft this year, might even go pick 2.

I do think a home base would help but really I think what we are lacking is a way to embrace and sell what we've got as a club. The Giants are so tight knit as a club because they've taken their disadvantages and turned them in to positives. Small club = community feel between the fans and the club. Fledgling start up = huge bond between players, coaches, staff etc. All the things we see as a disadvantage: Shared training base - great access to storm/victory etc Open training oval - easy connection for players to loyal fans Small membership - great heartland supporters Seen as toff's - embrace the city and top end of town image in a positive way I really think under PJ we started to get things right about how the club saw itself. Hard working, community focused, cared for each other, positive with a plan. Get back to those things and we can overcome things like training ovals and home bases.

He's going to give up money and be a cheap trade to bring in but that means he'll have an expectation that he'll play in and contribute to a good side, otherwise he's almost better off staying at the Crows and getting his cash. So what happens if he starts to struggle as most limited 31 year old key forwards do. He bounces in and out of the side with Weid? That doesn't help the team or Weid's development. The only stat he clearly outranks Weideman in is goals where he's 2 a game v Sam's 1 a game. An extra goal a week is nice but I think Sam could get to a 1.5 goals a game pretty easily and can do more with bringing team mates in to the game and that's without even making a big leap in improvement. We can't be operating under the expectation of a string of injuries, we have to at least assume a group of T Mc, Weid, Petty with some subpar but interesting options in J Smith and Preuss get through a fair chunk of the season. Give me at least 1 of the first 3 guys every week and pinch hit with one of the latter 2 if needed is what I'd do. Plus a kid or state league depth option with upside. If the current crop isn't working then I think we'll have to go hard at a permanent replacement and Jenkins is just wasting money and resources if that's the case.

They have twice as much talent as we did in 2013/2014 and we didn’t get a pick then. Let the league fudge their salary cap so they can sign Ellis and Brad Couch if they can get him. The problem with the priority pick is if it works out it’s a 15 year benefit when all they need is a short term boost. Brisbane were in the same spot, got pick 19 which became Cedric Cox. Imagine if they got pick 1 and got Andy McGrath or Tim Taranto!