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Well there you go DD36 - you just got the approval of h_h... That's got to bring on some reflection.

You don't have to partake in the discussion if you don't want to - my point was to essentially say that we have 28 players that are not ready to compete in the AFL at the level of even a middling club. S-home for example was absolutely mystified a few weeks ago about the assertion that 20 players were not in the future of the club. I can barely get 20 players that have established themselves that they will be the present of the club. Stay, discuss and refute - or find another thread to contribute to...

The reason why I have framed it like this is to give people an idea of potential talent is not realised talent and Roos can only work with the latter. I get frustrated when posters run past the names of kids that have played a handful of games and expect them to give what they should not be asked to give. That is why a discussion about AFL Calibre, or AFL Quality, or AFL Capable, is valuable to evaluating how well your team should be going in any given year. We have plenty of blokes that can fulfil a role, especially down back, but what we are lacking is high end midfield talent and simply numbers that we can put through knowing they can compete competently.

Don't be so hard on yourself...

Clark is retired and Byrnes about to be retired - for the prurposes of not having another group I put them there. As for Fitzpatrick - I was never 'praising him from the mountain tops' and when some on here were saying he is better than Dawes my eyes were rolling and I was negatively judging their football knowledge. And the meat is the thread - the discussion - it's not meant to be in one post. Who do you disagree with?

His quickness and boldness just outweigh his skill issues, but I can understand the view that he is not good enough. I think that Mid Rotation was the group that fits him the best.

It doesn't matter if he his winning the footy. He is neat with the footy and ferocious when about to get it. He would be in top 4 mids, and one of the most important players at the club.

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing... But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above. I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.' The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are: ELITE MID - N Jones ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta The next groups are: POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp Analysis We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams. I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape. But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with. He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

Welcome Beats - I am impressed. A few more things for dpositive - injury payments are taken into for the cap aswell and that can really push out the numbers if fringe players are on 'match payment' contracts where you don't think they will play much but their wage jumps as they play twice as much and earn another $50k. And with the bolded - the vets allowance is being chopped over the next couple of years. Geelong were allowed to pay 9 players and that adds up... Soon Vets will have their own cap of about $400k that is reserved for them. So the AFL introduces something and scraps it over a period of about 3 years... It's laughable if it wasn't so frustrating - let me at the rules goddamnit! Mine would be pretty bloody good - I will do a thread on that soon.

Do you know why I referred to them as irrelevant? Because of the opening post: We 'need' to win them both? Maybe I am too fastidious about the definitions of words but there is no need to finish on 6 wins as opposed to 5 or 4. Wins over those lowly teams will not propel us toward any grand future, nor losses diminish our already terrible season (although relatively speaking this season is a comparative success to 2013...). Winning those games would be just great, but those results are irrelevant to where we are at and what Roos and Jackson must do.

We oscillate between loving, liking, loathing, and hating this kid over the course of the last 5 seasons. The sad fact is that it is missing the point. As a 195cm HFF with damaging skills - he needs others to get him the footy. We don't have those players. Watts is just a role player in a list with about 15 AFL calibre players (some of whom are also just role players).

That's right. The frontloading of contracts was an ingenious way to meet the minimum of the cap but as you say - it creates more room in following years to pay others and when you can get a Clark or a Dawes to soak up that cash - great. If you can't then you are going to overpay a number of your players rather than recruit one overpaid player. Another issue is the AFL making up - on the fly - that the FA rules will look at the last year of a contract rather than the whole contract averaged out over the length of the contract. The point is that the salary cap minimum is here to stay and so is the practice of bad teams overpaying talent.

McDonald is staring blankly into the stands and Nathan Jones is staring at Chris Dawes' shoes... Are you really judging his desire on 2 seconds of cut away footage? As a captain who does those speeches every game - all players react different ways to what is being said and their attentions and facial expressions are as meaningless as you have taken meaning in Watts'. You want eyes all the time, but holding grudges against the occasional wander is self-defeating - it's the kind of crap I heard Neeld was fond of to be perfectly honest with you.

Top 10 in year 8, 6th in year 9... Yay... Cough.

Like Undeetered, I am equally sceptical about what you are proposing to do with that extra cap money. We will use it for fringe players at Casey. Kids are at Casey and NQR players. Do we pay and play more pros at Casey? Why wouldn't we target players to get paid more that actually play AFL. If you are recruiting kids to play at Casey while they develop - why would you pay them more than they are worth in the market? Overpaying your best players is an unfortunate happenstance when you have a barren list like ours.

And why would they do that deal? Unless you get both to say - I am going home - GWS doesn't want to get younger by doing that trade.

We have less talent than other teams but have to reach the salary 'floor' - of course we are going to over pay. This is the least of our concerns. Not having the talent to over pay would be a higher concern, yes?

I am sorry that you feel my view that we have a bad list is an 'attitude' and not a statement of sad fact - but we have about 14 AFL standard players on the list right now and some of them are out of form... They bashed psyche of the players is concerning and affects performance but when comparing lists with other teams - our talent is potential talent and our AFL ready players are few and far between.

Yeah, if we don't win them, we might miss out on finals... We are a bad team, with a bad list - these two games are as irrelevant as the MFC right now.

Yes, but a few weeks ago Bail was working his way back to being a productive player - now he is 'part of the problem.' I am sorry to say this - but this list will not be fixed this October. It will take 3 years. Bail being delisted for Pick 105 is not 'making the list better' it is in fact - doing the opposite. I am using Bail as an example here but the notion 'anyone would be better than...' is the stupidest reason to get rid of someone. At the end of 2007 and in the next couple of years we got rid of pros and replaced them with kids because 'that's how you rebuild' - well we now know that is BS. You make the list better by bringing in talent and making sure you space out the deletion of those that won't make it strategically so that you can maximise the amount of high end talent you bring in over these 3 years.

This hurts my feelings, supermercado. I have a thread on the board right now and mine is better than this one. Nicholson is OOC this year. Tyson got a three year contract. Sigh...

No, but I have a mortgage on an opinion goose. I don't know what's worse; the repayments or the fact that he has to tell me what he thinks about EVERYTHING...

Ruthless Rooth-less adj. 1. Attaining something in an impossible scenario. 2. To get something worth something, with nothing. 3. To expect an unrealistic happenstance.

1: Pick 3 2: Pick 4 3: Pick 20 4: Pick 40 5: Pick 59 6: Jetta (Elevation) 7: Pick 77 8: Pick 90 9: Delisted Free Agent 10: Pick 100 Don't know about the kind of talent you would be getting in with those last few - with Frawley tying our hands in FA we won't be getting any FAs in.

Nah, PJ - let Roosy do it.