BoBo

Hey demonlanders! I’m not sure if this has been addressed in another topic so please delete if so. Our forward connection now looks pretty darn good. Especially comparing it previous years. From what I can see, having Spargo and Kozzie being such a threat, Fritsch being able to always create space and Ben Brown and TMAC if not marking it, consciously making sure they get one hand to a contest to get the ball in the right drop zone, has meant we now have defenders that can’t double team as much and also makes them play closer to their man. Fritsch now looks like he is constantly having more space to lead into because teams can’t afford their defenders to drop off their man. Is it Spargo and Kozzie alone that have allowed this connection to prove more fruitful with goals?? Was that what has been missing?

The only thing I worry about in this game is that GWS were SOFT on Geelong. They didn’t play hard at all and it didn’t really feel like a finals game. Lots of space given and not a heap of pressure. But. Geelong looked like they could be broken if the game was brought to them (which GWS just couldn’t do). I don’t think they’ll be able to handle the pressure of our forwards and backline and how hard our mids can attack the ball. It’s just a question of us being hard right from the outset. We bullied them in 18’ with essentially this team. They’re older and slower than 3 years ago and we just have to play our game, make sure our pressure it up and for the love of god, make sure they’re bombing into their forward line without precision passes. We got this Dees!

Why do you say Malthouse is a dog?? I’ve heard people say this about him before but I don’t think I’ve heard any stories to go along with it. Why is he disliked?

Ok, I disagree. I don’t think it’s a fruitless discussion and I don’t think it’s off topic. If other people also think I’m being over the top then genuinely let me know and I’ll stick to footy.

Cool. All I ever asked was for you to substantiate your claims against your own words.

See? You’ve pivoted away from my question again (which directly related to your previous answers) I asked you ‘what is the content of the abuse that is generally aimed at umpires that you disagree with? As in, is their abuse about the class of people they are in the society? Or is it based upon their actions as umpires?’ You ignored the characterisation of the abuse part of the question and then stated: All of it. You then went on to talk about stats of the game which was bizarre. So you’re argument is then that any abuse that an umpire receives is as bad as racial abuse. Which is as ridiculous and obscene as it sounds. —————————————————————————— You also said that racial abuse and umpire abuse is comparable given it’s about ‘actual words said and the context… short answer no.’ You’ve then stated that the ‘gap’ between umpire abuse and racial abuse is ‘too large’ Again, the implication of this answer is that racial abuse and umpire abuse is comparable. ———————————————————————— Above, you’ve clearly stated that ‘Abuse is abuse’ Yet again, you are implying that umpire abuse and racial abuse are on a comparative level. ———————————————————————— I can’t reflect your own words back to you again. You clearly see umpire abuse and racial abuse as comparable given the ‘context’ and the ‘actual words’. ———————————————————————— So again, for the 3rd time, the short answer you speak of and this ‘gap’… Tell me directly: How in any way is umpire abuse comparable to racial abuse? Give me the words and context that have happened to prove your point.

Ok, if myself and Macca were equating the two issues then I would agree. This is not what’s happening. Macca is equating the two issues. I am making him substantiate his claims which I already know full well that he can’t and that the comparison is ridiculous and obscene in and of itself. It’s worth people seeing this as again, these kinds of comparisons are used to diminish the gravity of racism. I’m showing how ludicrous these comparisons are.

You have completely dodged the main question I have asked. You have brought umpire abuse into a discussion about racial abuse and by implication you are saying that they are comparable. You’ve then said that the ‘gap’ between racial abuse and umpire abuse is ‘too far’ I’ve then asked you to substantiate why my points that umpire abuse and racial abuse are too far apart and what is the content of the abuse that umpires get… and you’ve answered with stats about the game and given answers to questions I didn’t ask. So I’ll ask again: How is abusing an umpire in any way, the same weight of insulting or racially abusing an indigenous person? Just answer this question directly please.

If the Moderators se fit to stop this thread then that’s fine. I am asking legitimate questions which are very much on topic and speaking for myself, I am not getting pulled away into other topics. The question of comparing abuse (I.e. racial or against umpires) which I am challenging directly, is absolutely pertinent to the discussion of racism as it’s a tactic to downplay the effects of racial abuse whether people know it or not. You are not the arbiter of what is acceptable to discuss here and you don’t need to keep reading this thread.

I have the same opinion that you do. I’m trying to understand where @Macca is coming from and asking for him to substantiate the positions he has. If he sees umpire abuse and racial abuse as anywhere near comparible, then I would like an explanation as to how. If we want to actually discuss racism, then these are the claims that need to be challenged and understood in my opinion. I’m glad it’s gotten to this stage where other peoples views are being brought into and we can discuss and formulate reasoned discussion about comparisons. It’s the only way we learn and it isn’t pretty.

Respectfully, this is very much on topic. We are getting to the stage of disassembling the abuse that umpires receive vs indigenous people. A part of playing down the severity of racial abuse is saying ‘yes but there are other kinds of abusive behaviours that occur which isn’t good’. When people try and compare different kinds of abuse with each other for the sake of equating them, then I think it’s useful to have discussions which prove it otherwise.

Ok cool then we partially agree. So what is the content of the abuse that is generally aimed at umpires that you disagree with? As in, is the abuse about their identity as a class of people in this society? Or is it aimed at them personally as people because of their actions as umpires?

We’re discussing racism though. It doesn’t just exist within the bounds of indigenous people here. To understand the total layout and the societal forces that perpetuate it, you have to go into other parts of society that people are exposed too. And the umpire part is important too as it brings up the question: is all abusive behaviour of the same weight? Which in my opinion, is an important question to ask as it illustrates that verbal abuse is not something that implies the same things all across the board. History/context plays a massive part in how racism works and people need to understand that. Also, I’m not attacking you, I’m just pointing out that understanding racism means talking about it holistically as to ignore the externalities of our culture and it’s part in cultivating it, means a lack of actual communication about the issue.

I actually disagree. Discussing racism in an honest fashion will inevitably lead to all of these links. Because racism is ingrained in so many parts of society. I’m glad that it has gotten to this point because it broadens the discussion and makes people think. it might seem disjointed or lurching into other topics, but IMO, you can’t discuss racism in a vacuum of just AFL as it stems from so many different quarters.

Ok, but you haven’t substantiated that the weight of racial abuse vs umpire abuse is closer than I presented it. I presented it as being gravely different in its implications for a host of historical and contextual reasons. So I’ll ask it in a question: In your opinion does abusing an umpire for their decisions carry the same weight as racially abusing someone? If you do agree with this statement then you have to show how the two are analogous with each other.

Ok, substantiate in what way racial vilification and umpire abuse are closer than what I have presented?

I’m against umpires being abused full stop. It’s a hard and thankless job and it’s a sport in itself to take part in it. But the abuse that umpires get is disanalagous to that of the kind of abuse that Indigenous people receive. Being racially abused as an indigenous person is by implication (because of history/context) saying that they’re sub-human for their skin colour. Being abused as an umpire isn’t intrinsically about their core identity as a human being. It’s based on in some parts a pantomime bullying effect that people engage in and also it’s about the actions that they make… which are changeable. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m pointing out that racial abuse is far different than abusing an umpire. For example, historically umpires have not been second class citizens or had the kinds of state-approved genocidal acts committed on them like indigenous people. So in that sense, comparing the weight between racial abuse of indigenous people and abuse of umpires is nowhere near comparable…

The way to solve this is to have these conversations and to educate yourself on the issue. When you hear casually racist comments from your mates/co-workers/family, challenge them on it. If by ‘fix this’ you mean stop online racism by trolls by 100% then that’s not completely attainable. But, remember that logic is the same as saying ‘well we shouldn’t have speed limits because people still die on the roads’ A way racism persists is that it is payed down as being jokes, or just words or the onus of responsibility is put back on the people being vilified as just ‘being too sensitive’ You can only control what is around you inter-personally in this regard. Racism is very complex and nuanced so the first step to fixing things is to start with yourself and wilfully try to understand where prejudices come from. In time, if enough people do it, then that’s how societal change occurs. I certainly had prejudices when I was younger and had to make the effort of where they came from and why I held the beliefs I had.

Oh my apologies, I didn’t see that part.

What is the segregation you are referring too and what indigenous awards are you referring too?

Right, but this is beside the point. People don’t oppose things for the sole purpose of making them 100% stop… you oppose them if they are morally wrong to minimise them from happening which causes harm to people. Also, this isn’t solely an issue of anonymity as Tex Walker has just been outed for racially vilifying an indigenous person. Was he anonymous when he did it? Is ALL racism in Australia committed anonymously online? No it’s not. So presenting the issue of racism as though it’s just about anonymous people online is dodging the obviously reality issue of ingrained racism in the society. I could name quite a few Australian columnists/commentators both political and sporting that are known for racism and are even known for spreading it in under their own names… which again, isn’t a case of anonymity. It’s a case of racism.

There is no ignoring though. You either make yourself visible and live your actual life to the values that you espouse or you condone racism by being silent. If trolls want condemnation online for their sick behaviour then I’m happy to give them want they want. But I will also back up my words in real life and not tolerate this kind of hate in person too. I am mindful of people who go through racism reading forums like this and I want to show in the small way I can that I don’t accept this, be it online or in real life. If other people just say the things they mean to say online and act in real life in another way, then that’s a shameful thing to do. I mean it when I say that I call people out on their racist remarks, however small or ‘jokey’ they think they are.

You can see how deeply it affects indigenous people from this clip.

This clip perfectly explains how racism is about history and context. It’s not just words.

It’s messed up to think how indigenous players went through whole careers coping with it. I will never forget when Dermott Brereton apologised to Chris Lewis a few years ago. Breretons whole team went onto that field and as a game plan, racially abused him to try and put him off his game. I will never know what that feeling is like and it must have been extremely painful and vicious to go through something like that.