Grr-owl

No. The culture is fundamentally not western. I reckon that case could be made creditably made in relation to most of Italy and Spain and Portugal, too, even though they are Catholic. One of the major reasons that Europe will fail, but I don’t want to go into that. I’ll take the Souvlaki, though...

Neo liberalism has to go. See the thread about it. AF has interesting things to say....

Maybe it's a good idea to stop looking for things to believe?

It was Christian throughout the communist period. The impulses and idea that drove both are the same - uncritical acceptance of ideas. Dogma. The desire for a savior.... etc...

Education is the answer, and once the neo-liberals are gone, we might get some of that.

It's not the West, mate. No Orthodox country is Western....

I'm not sure why you bring all this up. No doubt he's right on some points, and certainly deluded on others; I love bluesy rock n' roll for instance. In any case, I'm not arguing .... Let me put it this way: Let's say it's hot out, 40 degrees or so. You have to go out and there's two cars in the driveway. Identical Datsun Sunnys. They are beaten up and broken in exactly the same way. The tires need some air. The window winders don't work. Everything is the same except for one thing: one has airconditioning and the other doesn't. Which one are you going to take to the shops? To argue that life in the USSR was better than life in the West over the equivalent period is just absurd.

We have this thing called science. It includes techniques to guard against bias. If you want to pick on the research, then come up with some evidence that it is wrong. Argue against it, for sure. That is your right. But gimme evidence. Debate is good and constructive.

I'll check this out. Though as you argue elsewhere that Russia is the West, perhaps what Solzhenitsyn really did was document how awful life was in the West, went to the West, then returned to the West cleaned of his illusion that the West was better. ??? To argue that life in the USSR was better than life in the West during an equivalent period is just a fantasy. In any case, as long as nobody tells me what I can write or draw or read or watch, I'll argue that life in the West is better than elsewhere, even given the litany of atrocities.

In reality. The West is pluralistic. Descended primarily from Protestantism, with a slug of Catholicism remaining, but with a big chunk of secularism driving it, and that's the most important bit if the discussion is about colonialism, capitalism, freedom of expression and what not. Russia is not Western in any sense. https://books.google.ae/books/about/Dominion.html?id=CWyGDwAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y https://books.google.ae/books?id=YhWtCJSSv2cC&dq=civilization+the+west+and+the+rest&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi31emTks_tAhUipnEKHapYDfYQ6AEwAnoECAIQAg

No problems. Well aware of these. Doesn't mean their wok is biased or wrong; simply means you need to take into account their characteristics as an organization, as is advisable in every instance when it comes to media. Skepticism is good. Cynicism is not, and neither is prejudice. Judge things on their merits.

In case anyone is interested in some issues relevant to this discussion, here's a couple of links to carefully composed and constructed articles: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/cyber-enabled-foreign-interference-elections-and-referendums https://www.aspi.org.au/report/mind-your-tongue

Depends where you go. Where I am he is referred to as 'the horned one,' as in the devil incarnate. Apparently he had horns on his forehead. Absolutely not. But for me it is not a dealbreaker. The crushing of freedom of expression would be a dealbreaker. Constantly. Often. And, yes. Not the point I was arguing against. Russia is not the West. In fact, any Orthodox dominated country is not the West. The division between Catholic and Orthodox is profound. The division between Orthodox and Protestant, even more so. In any case, Russia is not culturally European, though a part of it is in Europe. The Russ are an ancient Slavic tribe from Ukraine that spread far and wide, conquering and slaughtering as they went, and still go.... The point I am trying to make is the the crimes of the Rest are just as bad as the crimes of the West. But we have at least one saving grace that makes our societies better. Freedom of expression is the mechanism by which we acknowledge our mistakes and try to correct for the future. Ever wonder why so many emmigrants want to go to the West? If life is so much better where they come from, why would they bother.

Also, the votes from the cities tend be counted later. Country votes Republican. City votes Democrat... largely.

I believe this is a category error.

This issue is covered in the material I pointed you to.

No, I don't agree at all. We constantly and continually criticize ourselves in books, film, TV, art. For every claim of virtue, there is an acknowledgment of sin. How else would we get demonstrations in the street against the invasion of Iraq, and every other social evil? I'll give you an example from my life, again. A couple of years ago, every single citizen of that country beginning with the 17th letter of the alphabet was kicked out of the country I live in. Was there any protest against this racism? Did people march? Did people protest in print media? Did people even comment on social media? Like f$@k they did. They would have been murdered. So when you write this: "It doesn't seem to bother you that..." it sticks in my gut, because it does bother me. It bothers me a lot. People here deserve the same freedoms that Westerners have, but they don't get them, Deiter. I will point it out again: they would be murdered if they even commented. I might as well say to you it doesn't seem to bother you that other civilizations do exactly the same thing but you give them a free ride. In other words, you don't hold others to the same standard that you hold the West. You write, "There are no mirrors in their universe, it is always 'the other' who is at fault," but for you it is The West who is always at fault. You also wrote, "Genghis and his type learned their trade from Alexander the so-called Great" as if Genghis is not responsible for his own behavior, as if he needed a Westerner to teach him, as if 'others' don't have any of their own agency, as if Westerners are always pushing everybody else around and forcing them to do bad things against their own will.....as if they are puppets. There is in your ideas an underlying assumption that somehow Westerners are responsible for their own behavior and for everyone else's too. It is bollocks. It is fundamentally racist: "Only Westerners do bad things. Anyone who isn't a Westerner who does a bad thing is not responsible because no doubt a Westerner made them do it. Non-westerners are just poor inferior others who can't make their own decisions." Bollocks. See if this one fits your idea: It was the West's fault that during the cultural revolution when Red Guards identified a female counterrevolutionary, they would pass a steel hook into their [censored], through the intestinal wall and out their anus, then drag them naked through the streets to their execution. That bothers me. Does it bother you?

No, I haven't experienced war. Except when someone disagrees with me on Demonland.... Perhaps you aren't aware of the histories of other civilizations because you can't or don't care to read Chinese or Russian or Farsi or Hindi or Urdu or Arabic or Japanese or whatever the Mughals spoke or the Mongols or the Ching or the Aztecs or the Khmer or the Han or the Qin or the Tang or the Ming or the Yuan or the Ottomans or the Romans or the Greeks or the Vikings or Soong or the..... there's a very long list. How could anyone possibly tally up all the deaths? I do know that the number of dead in the last 70 years of rule by the CCP is pretty similar to the total of deaths in WWI and II combined. They got nukes. How many did Stalin murder? Read the Gulag Archipelago and tell me life was better in the USSR. As for Afghanistan, the Russians invaded in 1979. The had already invaded or at least backed the oppressive regimes of the Eastern block. They got nukes. How quickly we forget. In any case, only in the West is there a free media over many generations that allows us approach historical events from a variety of points of view in English. We can compare official points of view with unofficial points of view. We can make all kinds of tv shows and films and stuff. You think the CCP allows people to write an accurate or critical history of China? Each successive Chinese regime rewrites history to suit itself. Unless you read Chinese, you'd have to read it in English to get the truth. Ironic that the culture you decry is the only one that allows open and unfettered examination and criticism of itself, such as you display above. Yes, the West lies, but it also tells the truth. There's nothing our government can do to stop us from telling it. That's why it is so good. If I was to say any one of your criticisms of the West about the govt where I live, I would be imprisoned, possibly tortured, and certainly deported. Freedom of expression is the greatest thing. One of our best characteristics. If you don't appreciate it, fair enough, but I do because while I haven't been bombed, I have been and am gagged. If I was to merely mention in public, or on social media etc, a country beginning with the seventeenth letter of the alphabet in public I would risk jail and deportation. Until recently, another country, the one beginning with the ninth letter of the alphabet, one which you freely type without a second thought (I assume), was in the same boat. My wife is a librarian; she is required to erase that county's existence from maps and books in her library. She uses a marker or white out. People from the govt come regularly to check, as they check for other banned forms of expression -- pictures of greek statues, for instance. The rationale for the use of the bomb against the Japanese is fairly rock-solid. Although, I would argue that they could have dropped them off-shore and asked the Japanese to take a look and when the waves subsided, see if they really wanted to go on... Might have worked. A number often bandied about is that the bomb spared 2,000,000 lives, but I'm open to other arguments. Here's some good info on the debate: https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/debate-over-bomb

In any case, I originally was responding to Wrecker's post about Trump not starting any wars and his work in the Middle East. I was trying to make the point that it was probably a good move for US, Israel and the Arabs states to ally against Iran, and that the election of Biden puts that in jeopardy. The people here, while openly anti-semitic, nevertheless fear Iran more and wish to make their opposition explicit. We'll see what happens, but if the accord breaks down, people here will see that as just another example of Jewish treachery and US fickleness. The US is a poor friend, as they see it. But if they have the F-35's by then, they will have been compensated somewhat, and the situation will be very complex indeed. It's an important point that is being missed, in my opinion, that Trump got the deal done by selling a first-strike weapon to a middle-eastern regime. Was that smart? He would do anything to make himself look good....

And not the only one. In fact, in my experience, the so-called West is the least greedy, definitely the smartest and the only ones who could be trusted with weapons of mass destruction.

1. Can’t quite see how I made out out one side to be good and the other bad.... thought I was just describing the situation for the benefit of anyone interested. Maybe you’d like to point out where I went wrong. Having said that, I certainly consider myself a Westerner and grateful for it, having lived in Chinese civilisation and Sunni Arab civilisation and found them both seriously wanting in certain respects that are important to me, namely freedom of expression and potential for social mobility among other things. Just wish the neoliberals would die, and then maybe I could move back to Aus and get a job. 2. Sure, it’s occurred to me, but do you think it has occurred to other parties hereby mentioned? I guess part of my summary that needs to be understood is that Sunni Arabs certainly see the world in an us v them way, as do Shias. By the way, us Westerners are NOT included among the Us. There is much more to it - the conceptions of belongings and loyalties and identities involved - I couldn’t type it all out, but if you want to ask a question I can try to answer it rationally for you. Maybe it would be useful to point out that national identities such as American or Israeli are not the primary level of identity among people here. They are first and foremost a member of a religious group. Nationality comes way down the list. Also, the religious group is not necessarily defined in the way that us Westerners define a religious group. It is less a personal matter than a worldview, an ideology, an entire way of life endorsed by the creator of the universe which other peoples reject to their eternal damnation. You have to go back 500 years in western cultures to find this idea prominent. Where I live, the West was last like this 800 years ago. This manifests itself in ways which maybe a lot of Aussies don’t understand. For instance, when the US and allies invaded Iraq, people here didn’t see it in those terms. They see it as Christian’s invading Muslims. When I point out that the USA doesn’t represent Christianity, but is a nation of many faiths, none of which it represents, makes no impression. They liked Saddam, no matter how murderous, corrupt and rapacious he was, and forgive him personal and political failings because he killed Shias and because he identified as a Sunni. Different way of seeing the world. Very much Us v. Them, endorsed by God.

Apparently, as I understand it, he played in the midfield of a successful team at one point. Let me google him to be sure. Perhaps, maybe, may I posit, that his experience, skill, and his personal relationships with current Demons may make him a better candidate for a position than, say, other superfund topping up old guys?

I like the fact the Burgo told it as it was. A little concerned that others didn't have the cojones. Not much risk in it, surely.

Get my wife in; she's a Librarian.

Now here it is with its caption. A clear and obvious attempt to push a particular political line, contrary to evidence.