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Carlton's Tanking

s-t-i-n-g-a
in Melbourne Demons

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Its no different at all.. it hardly comes as any surprise after all it was the out and out standing joke of late last season.. It was talked about, ridiculed etc. We all knew it here...many at other clubs supposed it. Yet Andrew ( my head is in or up something ) Demetriou continued to roll out the line that such things dont exist.

Good onya Libba for having the balls to say it as it is

Not only should Carlton forfeit draft picks this season but Demetriou ought to be stood down for incompetence. I wonder if he was Nero in a previous life ??

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    The fact that Libba's come out to say this is good, but I'm sure the scum at Carlton are defending themselves by saying its just sour grapes from a FORMER employee of the club.

    Carlton make me increasingly sick and I wish them all the worst going forward....in fact, as punishment (to their scummy fans) they should be relocated to the gold coast. Although they'd probably get more concessions if they did that.

    I've gotta ask this question though: What can the AFL do about tanking? There just doesn't seem to be any logical solution to it that I can see. Perhaps if teams at the bottom of the ladder were to receive premiership points for losing instead of for winning this might be an incentive for them at the tail end of the year.

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    Not only should Carlton forfeit draft picks this season but Demetriou ought to be stood down for incompetence. I wonder if he was Nero in a previous life ??

    Nero...with a touch of Caligula thrown in

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    if only it wasn't libba who said it, this statement would have more credence. unfortunately his last 6-9 months worth of comments have tarnished his name for me at least.

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    .........................................

    I've gotta ask this question though: What can the AFL do about tanking?

    The first thing they can do is ADMIT it happens !!

    By doing this they then are required to act upon it.

    Likely hood ?? Not overly great as then AD would have to conced he was 100% wrong ( and that happens all the time right ?) and then put into place methods and punishments for it.

    Must easier to walk around espousing..." La La...La..Laaaaaaaaaa.....I cant hear you !!!! "

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    I've gotta ask this question though: What can the AFL do about tanking?

    Easy remove the automatic reward and certainty of a priority pick for failure. Make it a lottery for the bottom 3 or 4 clubs.

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    Easy remove the automatic reward and certainty of a priority pick for failure. Make it a lottery for the bottom 3 or 4 clubs.

    damn right RR...that would cut it out pronto.

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    yep you guys are right, they need to get rid of priority picks completely and making it a lottery would be better.

    However, how about this for a zany idea. When a team reaches a point where they are out of finals contention (i.e. mathematical impossibility) They enter into a pool (kind of like a wooden spoon sub-competition) and henceforth any win they have earns them extra "tickets" in the draft lottery. At least that would be some kind of incentive for teams (and equally importantly, their fans) to maintain a competitive mindset and have a decent dip towards the end of the year. Games where two bottom teams clashed could be worth double "tickets" for even more interest.

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    yep you guys are right, they need to get rid of priority picks completely and making it a lottery would be better.

    However, how about this for a zany idea. When a team reaches a point where they are out of finals contention (i.e. mathematical impossibility) They enter into a pool (kind of like a wooden spoon sub-competition) and henceforth any win they have earns them extra "tickets" in the draft lottery. At least that would be some kind of incentive for teams (and equally importantly, their fans) to maintain a competitive mindset and have a decent dip towards the end of the year. Games where two bottom teams clashed could be worth double "tickets" for even more interest.

    They tank themselves out of the finals and then win lottery tickets for the rest of the season. Nope does not work.

    You want to recognise the need to assist struggling clubs but you dont want to incentivise efforts to become one. That's the issue

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    Do you seriously reckon (Carlton aside) that teams would tank the first half of a season just so they could blitz the second half for extra lottery picks in the draft? I wouldn't think it would be tolerated by fans, players, or sponsors. At least having some incentive to compete for those that are out of the finals race would add a lot more interest in this league of ours that has no "relegation battle" type scenario.

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    I think logically you simply get rid of priority picks. If you finish last you get 1st pick.. and #17 and #33 etc.

    If you end up on the bottom for 2 or three years then your problems are more profound I suspect that a couple of picks can fix !!

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    I agree with the lottery idea, but with the eight teams out of the finals being in the pool. Lets say a team is 12th, and finishing 13th gets them into the lottery. 12th and 13th play each other in the last round to get into the lottery and a chance at the #1 pick. A problem still, although much smaller. If 8th and 9th play each other in the last round, and a place in the finals is available vs a place in the lottery, then the incentive to be in finals surely wins out.

    Just my thoughts. The lower you finish in the bottom 8, the more balls you get in the lottery!

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    I also see the temptation for teams to "slip' down into the better lotto gaining positions.

    The draft works ok..dont fix it.. Its the priorities that need scrapping.

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    Yes, first thing should be scrap the priority picks, it's clear that it is what's driving this whole tanking business. Plus I think we can say for ourselves, even when you do get priority picks, it doesn't always help very much (cough, Sylvia).

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    Do you seriously reckon (Carlton aside) that teams would tank the first half of a season just so they could blitz the second half for extra lottery picks in the draft? I wouldn't think it would be tolerated by fans, players, or sponsors. At least having some incentive to compete for those that are out of the finals race would add a lot more interest in this league of ours that has no "relegation battle" type scenario.

    Richmnd would. Hell Wallet has said they wont be competitive til 2011!!! He was interested in win this year and know he couldn't go anywhere in 2007.

    Carlton did. By prolonging a farcical coaching arrangement with Pagan.

    If a team starts the year badly then they could easily say.....we could drop the next three games (possibly playing the top sides) and cash in on bottom 8 round games.

    What about this scenario Team A (qualifies for lottery already and sitting 16th on the ladder) vs Team B (needs another loss or two to qualify and is sitting 10th on the ladder with no chance of the finals) Who's going to win???? :rolleyes:

    If you make rules that directly and automatically reward failure then teams will play towards achieving those rewards.

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    If you make rules that directly and automatically reward failure then teams will play towards achieving those rewards.

    exactly... there must be no incentive to FAIL !!

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    Yes, first thing should be scrap the priority picks, it's clear that it is what's driving this whole tanking business. Plus I think we can say for ourselves, even when you do get priority picks, it doesn't always help very much (cough, Sylvia).

    The Priority pick system recognises that there is a need to support and make competitive bottom dwelling sides. I think this is a good thing. However they create uncertainty towards the access to additional help. Hence a lottery between the bottom 3 or 4 clubs.

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    Okay, how about this.

    You even out the rewards that are on offer by taking the average of a team's results once they are out of finals contention, so the team languishing on the bottom doesn't have more opportunties to accumulate lottery balls. This would then be a blanket incentive for teams to at least compete once they're out of the finals race.

    Don't forget that I advocate scrapping the priority picks as well, so what they're playing for is a "better probability" of a higher draft pick. I can't see anything too wrong with this system.

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    The minute you present an advantage to the norm for any team to be in x position rather than Y ..you have a siutation that breeds corruption.. To think anything else is naieve .

    Straight out picks according to position.. Its simple..it worked..only 'priorities' stuffed things up !!

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    Easy remove the automatic reward and certainty of a priority pick for failure. Make it a lottery for the bottom 3 or 4 clubs.

    Judd mentioned this on the Footy show last night, and whilst it has to be a front runner in terms of ways to deal with Tanking into the future, I can't help but feel the damage is done to some extent - as the Blues have got away with "Blue Murder" for the last four years, so of course they would be quite happy to find a solution now that they have emptied the bank clean so to speak.

    Notice how the solution just rolled off Juddy's tongue last night, anything to smooth over the cracks that are appearing.

    So yeah find a solution, but that solution may leave Carlton and Hawthorn (from earlier drafts), in an unfavourable position seeing any bottom finishers under a new draft structure won't have the same advantage as they previously did.

    Having said that, there is still an element of clubs having to use there picks wisely, but that's really no different to being given money and then blowing it, you can't say you didn't get it

    The currency the Blue's have received has set them up pretty well - Judd, Kruezer, Murphy, Walker etc.

    So any changing of the system now into a lottery or such would be an unfair advantage to Carlton, unless they are made accountable for their actions and penalised.

    In a sense, the introduction last year of the "two years in a row under 5 wins for a priority pick", has brought this to the surface even more than before they introduced this rule because clubs are now having to stoop to lower levels.

    The AFL must do something to sanction Carlton, and it must be enough of a deterrent for other clubs in the future

    The Penalty is the Key here, as oppose to changing the draft structure, as clubs will always find a way to sneak around the rules

    In Carlton's case, they should have learnt their lesson from the Salary Cap penalties, and on that basis, it makes it that much worse

    I feel that the Blues have tried to sneak one back on the AFL for those penalties (being bitter), and it's not as if they weren't warned in the last rounds of last season, by Demetriou, who said they had their eye on them .

    I told you it would catch up with them - and now it has

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    The minute you present an advantage to the norm for any team to be in x position rather than Y ..you have a siutation that breeds corruption.. To think anything else is naieve .

    Straight out picks according to position.. Its simple..it worked..only 'priorities' stuffed things up !!

    Okay, I see both yours and RR's points on this. I would just like a reason to be interested in the footy when my team is out of the finals race, that's all. I'm sure others feel the same way as I do.

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    In Carlton's case, they should have learnt their lesson from the Salary Cap penalties, and on that basis, it makes it that much worse

    Carlton have been put in the position they are to large extent by the pernicious impact of the salary cap penalties they receive for rorting the salary cap breaches. The impact of this has decimated their list and denied them an access to the talent pool. However it goes without saying that internal Carlton issues since the salary cap exposure have also played a significant part

    The denial of draft picks effectively stuffs a club up for up to 10 years. The decisive impact of the salary cap breaches sent Carlton effectively to the wilderness on the field. And despite a series of No 1 picks in recent years, you look beyond that and their list is crap. They have huge holes that will take significant time to fill as talented players mature. Carlton have been a rather unskilled team of recent years and prior to 2007 I dont think there was any issue of tanking. They were just awful. I believe with the appointment of Swan and the mounting issue with Pagan at the start of this season effectively gave them the basis to throw the season and to chase Judd. Very difficult to prove. And just basing it on the bitter words of an ex assistant coach with an axe to grind is very dangerous and not substantive evidence.

    The AFL rules are as much to blame for this.

    So whats the penalty for Carlton....remove draft picks? :blink:

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    So whats the penalty for Carlton....remove draft picks? :blink:

    There should not and will not be any penalties. I have no doubt Carlton tanked, but as has been stated before, the AFL allowed this to happen and connot turn around and punish them.

    As for a fairer system. I proposed on this site a couple years ago the team that finishes 9th should get the number 1 pick and so on down to the team that finishes 16th gets pick 8. Then for the top half the team that finishes 8th gets pick 9 and so on up to the team that finaishes 1st gets pick 16. And the following rounds continue in the traditional order.

    The idea being teams pushing for finals, but not quite good enough, get rewarded. The reward allows them to move into the top half. The teams that finish down the bottom half still get a good pick which allows them to move up the bottom half and compete for better picks.

    If this system was in place teams won't be bottoming out and then all of a sudden bouncing into finals. Teams will slowly build and improve. I beleive the league will be much better for this and there will be absolutely no motivation to lose games!

    Of course priority picks to be scrapped as well.

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