Question on new coaches

[buck_nekkid 5,847]

There is lots of talk on getting a new coach. I'm not here to speak against that, just some questions:

How many 'first season' coaches with new clubs have ever won a flag? (ie, new coach, or experienced coach switching clubs, in their first year?)

How long does it normally take a premiership coach in the modern era to win the flag from when they start at the club?

Who has been the quickest, and how long did it take?

I know there are some super stats demons out there - I think this would be a really interesting question, with the subtext "How long must we NOW wait if Danners is 'Dusted' "(thanks for the great expression Chairman!)

[MelbourneRedlegs 9]

Can I also add, which coaches would be considered for the job if, by chance, ND gets the boot?

[Gorgoroth 12,924]

depends on the list and the coach, most coaches get a list that needs work, ours is a decent list and with the right game plans and a mentally tough coach who makes the players play the ball and relish the hard stuff we could be a decent top 4 side

[DEES 0]

I reckon Vossy is our man, we should go for him or else he'll be lured to some other crappy club.

[warren dean 193]

Hi all,

A new member to this forum but an oldish member of the mighty Demons. If you look at coaching appointments since Norm Smith, almost all have had their first senior coaching experience with the Club. The exceptions would be Barassi and Northey, who had a year with the Swans before we got him. Balme had coached in SA for a few years, but names like Ditterich, Jones, Ridley, Beckwith etc were all first timers. We had Bob Skilton for a little while who had some very unsuccessful experience as playing coach with South, but we have been a club that has tended to go for new talent. Intersting times ahead! For mine we want someone who'll instill a bit of steel - Voss may be the man, but of the experienced brigade I think Pagan may be worth looking at.

[Toad33 57]

There is lots of talk on getting a new coach. I'm not here to speak against that, just some questions:

How many 'first season' coaches with new clubs have ever won a flag? (ie, new coach, or experienced coach switching clubs, in their first year?)

How long does it normally take a premiership coach in the modern era to win the flag from when they start at the club?Who has been the quickest, and how long did it take?

I know there are some super stats demons out there - I think this would be a really interesting question, with the subtext "How long must we NOW wait if Danners is 'Dusted' "(thanks for the great expression Chairman!)

Malthouse is still looking for his first premiership at his new club, but he did get close there a few years back. Not sure how long he was in the job to that point though.

Matthews took about three or four years at Brisbane I think.

Pagan is still working on it.

I don't think there are any other premiership coaches currently coaching that have moved clubs.

A better question might be.

How many years experience should a premiership player have as an assistant coach before they should be considered for a senior coaching job?

Why you ask?

Becasue all premiership coaches in the past decade, except Pagan and Roos, have been premiership players!!!!!

I don't think it is a coincidence!!!

[Guest bjs]

michael Voss does not impress me off the field nearly as much as he did on the field.His assessments sometimes feel a little to complex in there simplicities.I would like to look outside the square and look at Buckley.He is quite the opposite and makes the complex simple.I believe he is a moral to be a fantastic coach and his attributes to not need to be listed.a true professional with an uncanny knack of reading the game.

[Deano74 156]

Where's Brett Ratten ? From memory when he was our Midfield coach he had them Firing, and was a premiership player.

[Gorgoroth 12,924]

ratten is an assistent at carlton, would like him but doubtful he would come.

voss would be good if he could bring a few assistants with experience.

viney seems to be doing a great job with the hawks midfield, might be still too friendly with the likes of yze and such.

buckley wants to play next year so you can pretty much forget him.

[warren dean 193]

In answer to the question How long should it take? Sheedy started with the Bombers in 1981 and had them in the GF in 83 and they won the flag the next year (and went back to back). Pagan took over the Roos in 1993 and after 3 consecutive finals series they won the flag in 96. Leig Matthews took over Collingwood in 86 and the Pies broke through in 90, and then had his first year with the Lions in 99 and they started their hatrick in 2001. Mark Williams was appointed at Port Adelaide in 1999 and they finally made it in 2004 (after a few McClelland Trophies) and Paul Roos took over part way through 2002 and the Swans saluted in 2005. Seems to me from this that if you haven't grabbed a flag within 3-4 years then chances are you won't. Worsfold got his in his fifth year, but could easily have won it in his fourth.

Incidentally, both Northey and Daniher had us in the GF in their third years in charge and that was as far as either of them got us. Although both were perhaps a little unlucky to run into arguably the two best sides of the last 40 years.

[CHAMP 347]

There is lots of talk on getting a new coach. I'm not here to speak against that, just some questions:

How many 'first season' coaches with new clubs have ever won a flag? (ie, new coach, or experienced coach switching clubs, in their first year?)

How long does it normally take a premiership coach in the modern era to win the flag from when they start at the club?

Who has been the quickest, and how long did it take?

I know there are some super stats demons out there - I think this would be a really interesting question, with the subtext "How long must we NOW wait if Danners is 'Dusted' "(thanks for the great expression Chairman!)

Premiership Coaches are few and far between with only 22 men able to claim such a status.

all-time coaches list

[Kit Walker 225]

Denis Pagan won premierships as a coach at under 19 level with North (5) and at reserves level with Essendon before getting a senior job. A coach for a start needs to have the respect of the players he is coaching and the comment earlier about premiership coaches usually/often being premiership players is spot on. Pagan was different because he already had a successful coaching career at lower levels before taking on the main job.

For this reason, I wouldn't discount Mark Williams for Sandringham. I'm not saying he should be the next coach but his record means that there should be some consideration of him. My personal preference would probably be Pagan though, as he would instill some hardness and commitment into this group of players and take the tough decisions about list management that need to be made.

Whoever it is though, no doubt there will be some bitching and moaning about a particular person's favourite missing out, but I don't really care who the new coach is as long as I can get some confidence back about the direction this footy club is taking. The only thing that should happen right now is that either the club or Daniher himself say that he will not be reappointed/seek reappointment for next year so the process can get started and the board can make a considered decision with the new coach to be in place before trade week.

[buck_nekkid 5,847]

Thanks for the info, WD and Champ.

It seems that it is between 2-5 years before a coach appointed to a new club can grab a flag- I suppose that is something to weigh up when the 'Dust Danners' call goes up (could he deliver before 2009, the earliest we could expect a new arrival to?)

Either way, looks like we are in for a few more years of waiting .... (sigh!)

[Tim 3,413]

Warren - interesting table. There must be more than 22 premiership coaches, as (off the top of the head) Charlie Clymo coached Geelong to one in 1931 in his one and only year - the ultimate new chum! No doubt the prevailing orthodoxy around 1932 in fan chat letter pages was that we needed a coach with no experience.

On a more serious note, it wasn't long after 1932 that Melbourne dragged itself out of a malaise of 1 flag in over 30 years after securing a culture change by recruiting the top management from Punt Road Oval. Percy Page as CEO and Checker Hughes as coach. Richmond were a power team, and Hughes was a premiership player and coach. The rest was (a glittering) history.

Anyone for a modern parallel?

[CHAMP 347]

Warren - interesting table. There must be more than 22 premiership coaches, as (off the top of the head) Charlie Clymo coached Geelong to one in 1931 in his one and only year - the ultimate new chum! No doubt the prevailing orthodoxy around 1932 in fan chat letter pages was that we needed a coach with no experience.

On a more serious note, it wasn't long after 1932 that Melbourne dragged itself out of a malaise of 1 flag in over 30 years after securing a culture change by recruiting the top management from Punt Road Oval. Percy Page as CEO and Checker Hughes as coach. Richmond were a power team, and Hughes was a premiership player and coach. The rest was (a glittering) history.

Anyone for a modern parallel?

You're right Tim about only 22 Coaches. Clicking the column header merely aligns the page stats, in this case coaches with 208 or more games. Notwithstanding, these 22 have won 3/4 of premierships played so they're still pretty thin on the ground. It has often happened that a successful coach is able to double-dip with the same basic list, eg John Coleman, 1962. 1965. Let's put the number at not much more than 40.

[warren dean 193]

Warren - interesting table. There must be more than 22 premiership coaches, as (off the top of the head) Charlie Clymo coached Geelong to one in 1931 in his one and only year - the ultimate new chum! No doubt the prevailing orthodoxy around 1932 in fan chat letter pages was that we needed a coach with no experience.

On a more serious note, it wasn't long after 1932 that Melbourne dragged itself out of a malaise of 1 flag in over 30 years after securing a culture change by recruiting the top management from Punt Road Oval. Percy Page as CEO and Checker Hughes as coach. Richmond were a power team, and Hughes was a premiership player and coach. The rest was (a glittering) history.

Anyone for a modern parallel?

Tim, to an extent we tried this when ND was appointed. Danny Corcoran came in as footy manager slightly before and assistants at the time included Simon Madden (ruck coach and match day), David Flood(match day and development- worked with Fagan with the ressies) and a bloke by the name of Bernie Sheehy as chairman of selectors, who had been Kevin Sheedy's right hand man during the '80's. We brought a lot of Essendon's footy department across, although not the administration! If my memory serves me correctly, Madden, Flood and Sheehy were all gone within a year or two. Cameron Schwab had only recently been appointed as CEO and didn't last too long after the salary cap breaches.

Maybe it's time to have another crack!

[hawka70 0]

You are spot on Tim. There have been 45 premiership coaches.

I should have had a page on that, but hey .... it's there now ... Premiership Coaches Record

[CHAMP 347]

You are spot on Tim. There have been 45 premiership coaches.

I should have had a page on that, but hey .... it's there now ... Premiership Coaches Record

So 22 coaches have won one premiership and 23 have collected the remaining 88. My sincere apologies for throwing us all into bemusement.

Edit: the figure 88 is arguable.

Jack Worrall was the first recognised Coach, as such, in 1902 but he didn't win a flag until 1908.

No doubt there were de-facto coaches before 1902 but they shall remain nameless.

[old55 23,394]

Premiership Coaches are few and far between with only 22 men able to claim such a status.

all-time coaches list

That's not the entire list of flag coaches, just a short list of coaches who have coached the most game.

Roos, Worsfold, Williams, Joyce, Jewell, Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Coleman, Davis, Sutton, Hughson, Diggins, Bissett, Clymo, Chadwick, Rankin, Barker, Belcher/Elms, Howson, Holden, Clark, Parratt, Angus, Ricketts are all missing.

[deanox 9,898]

and apparently the current coaches page isnt update either

http://afl.allthestats.com/coaches/currentcoaches.php

[CHAMP 347]

That's not the entire list of flag coaches, just a short list of coaches who have coached the most game.

Roos, Worsfold, Williams, Joyce, Jewell, Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Coleman, Davis, Sutton, Hughson, Diggins, Bissett, Clymo, Chadwick, Rankin, Barker, Belcher/Elms, Howson, Holden, Clark, Parratt, Angus, Ricketts are all missing.

Obviously you didn't bother reading posts #15 and #17 or failed to understand.

[hawka70 0]

and apparently the current coaches page isnt update either

http://afl.allthestats.com/coaches/currentcoaches.php

You did notice it was from 2004? Pagan and Sheedy have the worst record since that time with Daniher mid field.

Edit .... nevermind, the page has been updated to reflect coaches' full record.