Forward line questions

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,685]

31 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

I'm talking from now on though.

Happy with who we've selected the last two years, I have questions marks over Kolt, but happy to wait.

I'm talking from end of 25 onwards, these should be our targets.

Given the number of first round picks we've used the last two years, plus the potential FS/academy selections of White and Sinnema in 2025 and Prasad 2026 I think we should be going hard on trades and using picks.

We can trade picks from 2025, 2026 & 2027 now, so we can go pretty hard at adding to our list to win now.

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,685]

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Edited Tuesday at 23:17 by DistrACTION Jackson

[Roost it far 10,041]

From the small sample size I’d have AJ ahead of Turner at this point. Van Royen is adequate below his knees for a big man, Lloyd’s a tool. We desperately need Pickett and Spargo and I’m still keen to see Bowey forward. We don’t have elite kickers in the midfield but if Lindsay can pair up with Windsor on one side of the ground they could well become a weapon. 
I don’t mind the idea of playing AJ, JVR and Turner along with Pickett, Fritsch and Spargo. That feels good to me and AK can back up Max and warm the pine for Langford/Petracca to rotate through there. 
One other thing, please O please don’t play Max every week. Use Campbell, give Max 18 games and rest him. It’s going to hugely [censored] me off watching him limp into finals right when we need him most. 
Oh and a midfield of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Rivers/Viney/Langford is as good as anyone’s. If we can always have 2 of Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Rivers in there we should be able to push deep into September. 
I’d swap Pickett for Jackson if that ever came up.

[Adam The God 30,704]

19 minutes ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

Given the number of first round picks we've used the last two years, plus the potential FS/academy selections of White and Sinnema in 2025 and Prasad 2026 I think we should be going hard on trades and using picks.

We can trade picks from 2025, 2026 & 2027 now, so we can go pretty hard at adding to our list to win now.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's our strategy. We traded away out future 1st because we knew we'd be landing White.

[KozzyCan 946]

23 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Admittedly you’re probably right.

Petty’s easily one of our best contested marks and given our lack of small forward pressure and lack of quality small forward full stop, I think he could be of use up there. But yeah, he wasn’t great up forward last year.

I was totally on board the forward experiment after his late showings in 2023. By mid last year I just wanted him to be moved back again. So much more reliable as a defender and I think playing forward was horrible for his confidence.

[KozzyCan 946]

13 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

From the small sample size I’d have AJ ahead of Turner at this point. Van Royen is adequate below his knees for a big man, Lloyd’s a tool. We desperately need Pickett and Spargo and I’m still keen to see Bowey forward. We don’t have elite kickers in the midfield but if Lindsay can pair up with Windsor on one side of the ground they could well become a weapon. 
I don’t mind the idea of playing AJ, JVR and Turner along with Pickett, Fritsch and Spargo. That feels good to me and AK can back up Max and warm the pine for Langford/Petracca to rotate through there. 
One other thing, please O please don’t play Max every week. Use Campbell, give Max 18 games and rest him. It’s going to hugely [censored] me off watching him limp into finals right when we need him most. 
Oh and a midfield of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Rivers/Viney/Langford is as good as anyone’s. If we can always have 2 of Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Rivers in there we should be able to push deep into September. 
I’d swap Pickett for Jackson if that ever came up.

I kind of agree with Lloyd about JVR's limitation, he very rarely kicks goals in play, mostly just set shots. But I also think it doesn't really matter. Our forwardline is no worse than Collingwood or Sydney's, and only slightly worse than Brisbanes. We don't need to have an elite forwardline and we're not going to build much more than we've got in the next couple of years. The issue has always been ball movement and delivery inside 50. Fritsch would win the coleman if he had the time and space that he'd get at those teams.

[Kev 10,897]

43 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

I’m still keen to see Bowey forward

Me too, Bowey loves a goal at training, as a high forward he could put the ball on a six-pence for our leading forwards. 

Unfortunately, I haven't not seen them trial him in that position. 

Edited Wednesday at 00:10 by Kev

[Kev 10,897]

18 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

I kind of agree with Lloyd about JVR's limitation

He has an upside, his enthusiasm for the contest is great, he has some mongrel as well, when infront he finds separation, if behind he will smash the pack. Works hard for the ground ball, gets it, but his snaps need some work. I believe his limitations are his hands, tends to have two bites at it, when he gets that right he will star. I would love to see him work hard on goal assists.

[GS_1905 318]

 

42 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

From the small sample size I’d have AJ ahead of Turner at this point. Van Royen is adequate below his knees for a big man, Lloyd’s a tool. We desperately need Pickett and Spargo and I’m still keen to see Bowey forward. We don’t have elite kickers in the midfield but if Lindsay can pair up with Windsor on one side of the ground they could well become a weapon. 
I don’t mind the idea of playing AJ, JVR and Turner along with Pickett, Fritsch and Spargo. That feels good to me and AK can back up Max and warm the pine for Langford/Petracca to rotate through there. 
One other thing, please O please don’t play Max every week. Use Campbell, give Max 18 games and rest him. It’s going to hugely [censored] me off watching him limp into finals right when we need him most. 
Oh and a midfield of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Rivers/Viney/Langford is as good as anyone’s. If we can always have 2 of Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Rivers in there we should be able to push deep into September. 
I’d swap Pickett for Jackson if that ever came up.

Turner has a good level of athleticism - i just think he needs more game time and experience to develop forward craft. With JVR i do agree to some extent with Lloyd. He isn't overly quick or mobile or good below his knees. But neither was Tom Hawkins. So its all about role. If he is expected to play a Hawkins style role, then i think he has the tools to succeed.

[Roost it far 10,041]

46 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

I kind of agree with Lloyd about JVR's limitation, he very rarely kicks goals in play, mostly just set shots. But I also think it doesn't really matter. Our forwardline is no worse than Collingwood or Sydney's, and only slightly worse than Brisbanes. We don't need to have an elite forwardline and we're not going to build much more than we've got in the next couple of years. The issue has always been ball movement and delivery inside 50. Fritsch would win the coleman if he had the time and space that he'd get at those teams.

I think potting a 21 year 6’7’ forward for being poor at ground level is typical media dribble. The guys still growing into his body, has performed the same or better than just about every key forward before him. I mean is his role to rove his own ball or create for the small forwards? His CV is solid and Lloyd is a tool, you can’t argue that.

Edited Wednesday at 00:30 by Roost it far

[KozzyCan 946]

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

I think potting a 21 year 6’7’ forward for being poor at ground level is typical media dribble. The guys still growing into his body, has performed the same or better than just about every key forward before him. His CV is solid and Lloyd is a tool, you can’t argue that.

He's a big boy, he can cop some criticism. JVR's a good player and is progressing well, he also has flaws in his game. I don't think what Lloyd said anything that egregious.

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,685]

58 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's our strategy. We traded away out future 1st because we knew we'd be landing White.

The one I'm interested in is Zac Bailey from the Lions. RFA the end of 2026 I believe, so I wonder if we could prise him out a year early if he was interested in coming back to Vic. 

[Stu 1,062]

Watching replays of our games from 2021, and the first half of 2022, our forward line was a lot more open than in many games since then. A big reason for this, is teams being coached to sit deep against us. This is for two reasons - knowing  we often kicked long to the pockets or top of the square, where TMac, Gawn, and Fritsch could beat their opponents one out. And, that we have very few players who can hit a weighted kick to advantage of a forward in a crowded F50. 

Previously, teams would push high and our elite running and fitness would allow us to score on the turnover. I clearly remember in the 2022 Mother's Day game against St Kilda, Gawn marking on the wing, kicking to TMac who was leading back to the 50, who then delivered to Ben Brown who was also running back into our F50, who run into an open goal. 

We seem to never get those types of opportunities due to teams sitting deep against us, and our slow ball movement as a result of players receiving the ball after a turnover looking up and not having many options. 

One of the tactics we seemed to be trying on Sunday was having the deep forwards stay deep to leave space for half forwards and mids to lead back into. Or, if we get a forward half turnover, for Fritsch or JVR to lead (forward) into. One of the things that I liked on Sunday, was a few times players about to deliver the ball into the F50 just held the ball longer, or turned back and handballed, to give the forwards a moment to make their move, and cast doubt in the defenders mind. 

If Chaplin can have some success with these strategies, I imagine it will make it much harder for teams to coach against us. If teams start to push up when sitting back no longer works, that plays into the strengths of our full ground press, and our forwards start to get looks at one-on-one contests. 

Brisbane's small forwards did so well last year because they play a very attacking style. The smalls are in dangerous areas when the ball is kicked to a pack, where if they get the ball they have a good look at goal, but conversely if the fall of the ball is not favourable the opposition will be able to rebound. They also counter attack with wild abandon, which often gives the smalls lots of room to move in the F50. We need to fine a good balance between our overly defensive approach, and the reckless abandon approach the Lions had last year. One kick the wrong way in both the GWS and Cats games and they don't win the flag.

[KozzyCan 946]

7 minutes ago, Stu said:

Watching replays of our games from 2021, and the first half of 2022, our forward line was a lot more open than in many games since then. A big reason for this, is teams being coached to sit deep against us. This is for two reasons - knowing  we often kicked long to the pockets or top of the square, where TMac, Gawn, and Fritsch could beat their opponents one out. And, that we have very few players who can hit a weighted kick to advantage of a forward in a crowded F50. 

Previously, teams would push high and our elite running and fitness would allow us to score on the turnover. I clearly remember in the 2022 Mother's Day game against St Kilda, Gawn marking on the wing, kicking to TMac who was leading back to the 50, who then delivered to Ben Brown who was also running back into our F50, who run into an open goal. 

We seem to never get those types of opportunities due to teams sitting deep against us, and our slow ball movement as a result of players receiving the ball after a turnover looking up and not having many options. 

One of the tactics we seemed to be trying on Sunday was having the deep forwards stay deep to leave space for half forwards and mids to lead back into. Or, if we get a forward half turnover, for Fritsch or JVR to lead (forward) into. One of the things that I liked on Sunday, was a few times players about to deliver the ball into the F50 just held the ball longer, or turned back and handballed, to give the forwards a moment to make their move, and cast doubt in the defenders mind. 

If Chaplin can have some success with these strategies, I imagine it will make it much harder for teams to coach against us. If teams start to push up when sitting back no longer works, that plays into the strengths of our full ground press, and our forwards start to get looks at one-on-one contests. 

Brisbane's small forwards did so well last year because they play a very attacking style. The smalls are in dangerous areas when the ball is kicked to a pack, where if they get the ball they have a good look at goal, but conversely if the fall of the ball is not favourable the opposition will be able to rebound. They also counter attack with wild abandon, which often gives the smalls lots of room to move in the F50. We need to fine a good balance between our overly defensive approach, and the reckless abandon approach the Lions had last year. One kick the wrong way in both the GWS and Cats games and they don't win the flag.

I'll need to see more evidence but it did seem like our forward press was pulled back a bit in the third quarter to give us a little more room from the turnover to work with. It also seems like we are trying to share the ball around more, especially by hand. This will need to be ironed out because we are overdoing it at the moment.

Couple of examples from the weekend: Petracca handballing to Viney when he had an open goal in front of him and Viney had to stop, turn and snap from 40 out. And Fritsch 20 metres out on a slight angle kicking backwards to Billings was another baffling decision.

[Stu 1,062]

14 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

I'll need to see more evidence but it did seem like our forward press was pulled back a bit in the third quarter to give us a little more room from the turnover to work with. It also seems like we are trying to share the ball around more, especially by hand. This will need to be ironed out because we are overdoing it at the moment.

Couple of examples from the weekend: Petracca handballing to Viney when he had an open goal in front of him and Viney had to stop, turn and snap from 40 out. And Fritsch 20 metres out on a slight angle kicking backwards to Billings was another baffling decision.

It's an overcorrection. Players are told 'Stop bombing it long, or taking low percentage shots', which can often result in going too far the other way, like the examples you mentioned. They'll find the right balance I'm sure. My main query is will it last deep into the season. Last year we saw for the first 9 rounds, players hitting around 20 metres out from goal with low flat kicks that were harder to intercept. But due to the grueling opening to the season, fatigue, injury, and a diminishing lack of confidence, the new approach fell away. The key will be if we persist with these new strategies well past the bye.

[KozzyCan 946]

9 minutes ago, Stu said:

It's an overcorrection. Players are told 'Stop bombing it long, or taking low percentage shots', which can often result in going too far the other way, like the examples you mentioned. They'll find the right balance I'm sure. My main query is will it last deep into the season. Last year we saw for the first 9 rounds, players hitting around 20 metres out from goal with low flat kicks that were harder to intercept. But due to the grueling opening to the season, fatigue, injury, and a diminishing lack of confidence, the new approach fell away. The key will be if we persist with these new strategies well past the bye.

Last year was weird. We attempted to change the gameplan into this weird half pregnant chip kick thing in an attempt to fix our ball movement but we still moved the ball too slow so we were still easy to defend against. It looked good when it worked but was disasterous when it went awry. Then the coaches blinked after the Freo game and we tried to go back to the old faithful but we had a lot of injuries and out of form players and the players who were left just looked like they were over the whole season by that point.

[picket fence 18,155]

13 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

It’s worrying we don’t have big, pack crashing marking options and we are light on for opportunist small forwards with class. Kossi is suspended and earmarked for midfield role when he is back, McAdam injured, Spargo still recovering, Chandler struggling, Mentha, Henderson? Of course with rapid ball movement and good delivery into a F50 with forwards getting separation we might cover the lack of specialists and rack up big scores. But looking at our ball movement against Freo, it frustratingly looks very familiar, shallow entries often to forwards that are covered. The usual so called lack of connection between the mids and forwards! It’s only been an issue for 3 or 4 seasons though. 

Well well well, I said at the time we should have gone after Tim Membrey, but we didn't and guess what  he bagged 4 for the filth last week. There was an opportunity missed if ever there was one!!

[Roost it far 10,041]

7 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Well well well, I said at the time we should have gone after Tim Membrey, but we didn't and guess what  he bagged 4 for the filth last week. There was an opportunity missed if ever there was one!!

If Tim Membrey is the answer it's a ridiculous question. He'll be broken down before the middle of the year.

Edited Wednesday at 02:19 by Roost it far

[KozzyCan 946]

6 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

If Tim Membrey is the answer it's a ridiculous question. He'll be broken down before the middle of the year.

Yeah Membrey would just be another Melksham or McAdam.

[Stu 1,062]

Tim Membrey is member of the Kent Kingsley Forwards Club - he will kick a few against poor defences, or teams having a bad day. But he won't help you in big games, especially finals. @Roost it far is right - he'll likely twinge a hammy, quad, or calf at least once or twice through the year. 

The Pies are 3-4 injuries to their old stars away from middle of the road mediocrity. 

[Deemania since 56 6,804]

3 hours ago, Roost it far said:

I’m still keen to see Bowey forward.

Tick, particularly with Kozzie out for 3 weeks, Spargo still not ready, Chin yet to fire in assaulting the sticks at present.

[Deemania since 56 6,804]

1 hour ago, KozzyCan said:

I'll need to see more evidence but it did seem like our forward press was pulled back a bit in the third quarter to give us a little more room from the turnover to work with. It also seems like we are trying to share the ball around more, especially by hand. This will need to be ironed out because we are overdoing it at the moment.

Couple of examples from the weekend: Petracca handballing to Viney when he had an open goal in front of him and Viney had to stop, turn and snap from 40 out. And Fritsch 20 metres out on a slight angle kicking backwards to Billings was another baffling decision.

Yes, KC, ironing out using lots of starch (verbal spray-type) is warranted when opportunity knocks; Hafey was once overheard: '...and if you are within range - shoot for goal...' 

 

[Roost it far 10,041]

5 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Tick, particularly with Kozzie out for 3 weeks, Spargo still not ready, Chin yet to fire in assaulting the sticks at present.

We need more than 1 small forward.

[Deemania since 56 6,804]

Just now, Roost it far said:

We need more than 1 small forward.

You betcha ....

[Roost it far 10,041]

29 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Yeah Membrey would just be another Melksham or McAdam.

I feel for Melksham. His knee may have been the difference in 23.