1 minute ago, rjay said:

Stats can often make you look like a fool 'Jimmy'...

Just out of interest, how many games have you coached?

Explain to me why those stats make me look like a fool?! I'm intrigued. 

Just now, JimmyGadson said:

Explain to me why those stats make me look like a fool?! I'm intrigued. 

Do you really believe they are the worst 3 kicks in the game?

Forget the stats, stats have certain inputs but they never tell the full story.

28 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

I agree I don't think we have a potent enough forwardline. But when it works... And worked, without Petty and Fritsch. What are you putting that down to? 

I just can't understand how posters don't see that Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Langdon are all massive contributors to wasted forward entries. Like seriously. How do you not see this? 

It's a combination, but if supporters are really sticking their feet in due to some weird 'elite status untouchable' tag that supporters are putting on our mids, you've got rocks and it's embarrassing because you're overrating our midfield. 

History has shown that it doesn't matter how much contested football you win if you can't seal games of footy. How can this be argued given the types of losses we've seen from our side? 

You're all crazy and are drunk on MFC. 

You're the only one banging on about some elite status tag.

I believe we did leave a flag on the table this year, as we're just as good as any other team, and we've beaten both grand finalists. It was more down to our injuries that were basically all in the same zone of the ground. No other team dealt with this same problem this year.

It's abundantly clear that Petty and Melksham have forward craft. They're both excellent finishers too. We lost both of them for our finals campaign and looked what happened. Inaccuracy cost us both games.

I want us to add more class and finishing in the forward half to go with Petty, Kozzy, Fritta and McAdam, to make us better.

I think if we get our forwardline personnel, better craft from our forwards, we'll be extremely difficult to beat, because unlike Collingwood, we don't overcommit numbers forward (which we did in Goodwin era #1), if anything, we allow extras against us at contest and play extras behind the ball. Of course, I expect most teams to change things a bit over the season. If Collingwood fall again this weekend, they'd have to examine their game style, and certainly their personnel, pretty heavily.

I've written about this already, but what we need to look at is our 7th defender and seeing how we can exploit this for offensive purposes with an outnumber at ground level, rather than in the air. We have to back May, Lever (I'd like O'Sullivan) and our second tall defender to halve contests when 1v1, and go for the intercept when it's on the table. But otherwise, we want an outnumber at ground balls (ie playing three wingers and abandoning the Rivers offensive intercept role), so we can slingshot back to a less crowded forwardline.

I expect Chaplin to replace Yze as the game day strategist and it's likely we'll have a new forward and midfield or defensive coach. So we're going to have new ideas challenging the status quo, but it's also incumbent on the senior coach and coaches to play to the strengths of the list.

Where are our strengths? Backline personnel, defensive system, our midfield personnel's ability to win contests (win them outnumbered too). So we need to accept that our mids are great at the contest, but less precise with their disposal, which in the recent history of contested players, is pretty much the go. Martin and Dangerfield for example can absolutely butcher the ball by foot.

As to our defensive strengths, I think we can sacrifice a little more defensively to give a little more offensively, but that involves something like using two of the three wingers as wing backs, enabling the likes of Bowey, Salem and McVee licence to take on plays higher up the ground, knowing cover is out the back for them.

It means we don't necessarily give up our intercept game (which will still be 2024 footy), but that we can get outnumbers at defensive ground ball (which IMV is just about the most important facet of the modern game given the speed the game has been played at since 2021), and this ability to win ground ball, then feeds into our ability to score, and improves efficiency of ball movement by having our better ball users (Salem, Bowey and McVee) instigating our scoring chains from the middle of the ground, and ideally through the corridor.

Edited September 25, 20231 yr by Binmans PA

8 minutes ago, rjay said:

Do you really believe they are the worst 3 kicks in the game?

Forget the stats, stats have certain inputs but they never tell the full story.

JG is right. If Petracca took one or two more steps before dump kicking he’d see options. If Oliver hand balled out of the pack instead of dump kicking the game might just open up. If Gawn stopped grabbing the ball and dump kicking he might see a better placed handball option. This is where we lose it. We literally shoot ourselves in the foot time and again. Our patchwork forward line is largely ignored in favour of dump kicks. I’d right COMPOSURE on the board over summer.

5 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Salem

Salem's form was another concern late in the season.

He has a health issue that's obviously difficult to get on top of.

If he can get back to form next season it will be a big help as he is one of our better ball users.

2 minutes ago, rjay said:

Salem's form was another concern late in the season.

He has a health issue that's obviously difficult to get on top of.

If he can get back to form next season it will be a big help as he is one of our better ball users.

We'd have played Howes this year too, but for injury. He's a good ball user, so we can add him to the list. And indeed, if Salem doesn't improve form wise, his spot will ultimately come under threat.

Edited September 25, 20231 yr by Binmans PA

4 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Our patchwork forward line is largely ignored in favour of dump kicks.

Patchwork is correct. If you set the ball up in better positions you also set the ball up for the opposition to rebound and score against you if it doesn't come off.

I think we were playing to the personnel available.

Just now, Binmans PA said:

We'd have played Howes this year too, but for injury. He's a good ball user, so we can add him to the list. And indeed, if Salem doesn't improve form wise, his spot will ultimately come under threat.

I'm not sold on Howes yet..

..but I am on Salem, he's a terrific player. Just needs to get fit and healthy.

Just now, rjay said:

Patchwork is correct. If you set the ball up in better positions you also set the ball up for the opposition to rebound and score against you if it doesn't come off.

I think we were playing to the personnel available.

Agreed, and we were therefore playing the percentages with our ball movement, like we did in 2022 when injury started to strike, but it kept us in games. 

1 minute ago, rjay said:

I'm not sold on Howes yet..

..but I am on Salem, he's a terrific player. Just needs to get fit and healthy.

I love Salem, but he struggled this year. If he struggles again next year, irrespective of fitness/thyroid concerns, IMO, his spot has to be looked at.

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

Patchwork is correct. If you set the ball up in better positions you also set the ball up for the opposition to rebound and score against you if it doesn't come off.

I think we were playing to the personnel available.

As opposed to dumping it in and having them clear it so you can dump it in again. They’re AFL listed players, are you telling me they can’t mark a well directed kick more often than not?

 

1 minute ago, rjay said:

Patchwork is correct. If you set the ball up in better positions you also set the ball up for the opposition to rebound and score against you if it doesn't come off.

I think we were playing to the personnel available.

That's a slight on our playing  ability and is the same excuse that Binman excuses Goody for this game plan that causes us so much confusion snd   Nightmare as 30 players descend in to the arc and clog up our forward line. This  is all self inflicted and lazy coaching IMO. 

Next year surely JVR snd Petty deserve with the crumbers room to operate.

it's not playing to win and no wonder we fail to score under this defensive attitude. And what's more I think some supporters have woken up and decided not to go to the Finals while this charade is practised. 

We badly need a positive coach philosophy and get back to the players enjoying their footy rather than treating like our forward line needs a wall to defend for us to score, 

Wr have some creative players but their football is being sabotaged by an outdated and boring game plan. One way to start the takedown of a potential dynasty. 

It must be altered by the Coaches and Footy Dept selecting elite skilled athletes who run on the outside and are known for their finishing skills and disposal up forward and padding to those teammates. 

6 minutes ago, 58er said:

Next year surely JVR snd Petty deserve with the crumbers room to operate.

They did when we had that configuration...

We rarely had it unfortunately.

4 minutes ago, rjay said:

They did when we had that configuration...

We rarely had it unfortunately.

Not sure what you are alluding to configuration??!!  but Harry only played about 3 games forward snd vs Tigers found his way around quite well. Think JVR kicked 2 or 3 also  that day when forward line kicked 19/20 goals. 

Yes unfortunately not often due yo injury.  

31 minutes ago, 58er said:

Not sure what you are alluding to configuration??!!  but Harry only played about 3 games forward snd vs Tigers found his way around quite well. Think JVR kicked 2 or 3 also  that day when forward line kicked 19/20 goals. 

Yes unfortunately not often due yo injury.  

It's exactly what I'm alluding to '58'...

When we had a bit more class up forward our plan changed.

Injury/availability played a big part in what we could and couldn't do.

Collingwood:  Played twice, won by 4, lost by 7

Brisbane: Played twice, lost by 11, won by 1

Port: Played once, lost by 4

Carlton:  Played three times, won by 17, lost by 4, lost by 2

GWS:  Played once, lost by 2

 

We played the top 5 sides 9 times and lost 6 of those games by less than 2 goal.  Let's not pretend we are no good and a rabble.  We had Tmac, Brown, Petty and Fritta injured for long periods.  We had a second year key position forward show heaps. I don't think our forward line is the major issue and the concept that we "need to sell the farm" to get a gun KPF is flawed.

20 minutes ago, rjay said:

It's exactly what I'm alluding to '58'...

When we had a bit more class up forward our plan changed.

Injury/availability played a big part in what we could and couldn't do.

I say that that is no excuse. You have  to train players to a plan not just accept we have recruited poorly or wrong style snd make it as defensive snd crowded as possible.  We are shooting ourelves in the foot and confusion reigns on the field snd in the decisions made in quality ( or lackthereof) to finish off our scores etc, and of course our horribly Inaccurate results. 

1 minute ago, Slartibartfast said:

Collingwood:  Played twice, won by 4, lost by 7

Brisbane: Played twice, lost by 11, won by 1

Port: Played once, lost by 4

Carlton:  Played three times, won by 17, lost by 4, lost by 2

GWS:  Played once, lost by 2

 

We played the top 5 sides 9 times and lost 6 of those games by less than 2 goal.  Let's not pretend we are no good and a rabble.  We had Tmac, Brown, Petty and Fritta injured for long periods.  We had a second year key position forward show heaps. I don't think our forward line is the major issue and the concept that we "need to sell the farm" to get a gun KPF is flawed.

Despite I agree with lots you say Star it's no excuse to abandon attacking and snd just play an almost dysfunctional forward line. Proof is in the pudding. 

2024 has hot to change and those close losses wins with positive forward team play. 

1 hour ago, 58er said:

Not sure what you are alluding to configuration??!!  but Harry only played about 3 games forward snd vs Tigers found his way around quite well. Think JVR kicked 2 or 3 also  that day when forward line kicked 19/20 goals. 

Yes unfortunately not often due yo injury.  

Yes against the Tigers, Petty kicked 6, JVR and Melksham both kicked 4. Pretty sure it was 14 straight between them that day. 

14 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Collingwood:  Played twice, won by 4, lost by 7

Brisbane: Played twice, lost by 11, won by 1

Port: Played once, lost by 4

Carlton:  Played three times, won by 17, lost by 4, lost by 2

GWS:  Played once, lost by 2

 

We played the top 5 sides 9 times and lost 6 of those games by less than 2 goal.  Let's not pretend we are no good and a rabble.  We had Tmac, Brown, Petty and Fritta injured for long periods.  We had a second year key position forward show heaps. I don't think our forward line is the major issue and the concept that we "need to sell the farm" to get a gun KPF is flawed.

I'm coming around to this view, but I do think we need to improve our forward half personnel.

2 hours ago, rjay said:

Do you really believe they are the worst 3 kicks in the game?

Forget the stats, stats have certain inputs but they never tell the full story.

We have three of the top 10 worst kicks in the game. 

Yes. 

 

10 minutes ago, 58er said:

Despite I agree with lots you say Star it's no excuse to abandon attacking and snd just play an almost dysfunctional forward line. Proof is in the pudding. 

2024 has hot to change and those close losses wins with positive forward team play. 

We had the sixth best forward line in the AFL based on points kicked with most of our tall forwards injured for most of the year.  The concept that we have an almost dysfunctional forward line is a fallacy. 

1 minute ago, JimmyGadson said:

We have three of the top 10 worst kicks in the game. 

Yes. 

 

How is that measured Jimmy and where are the stats?  Just interested because it doesn't seem to pass the smell test.

3 minutes ago, gs77 said:

Yes against the Tigers, Petty kicked 6, JVR and Melksham both kicked 4. Pretty sure it was 14 straight between them that day. 

That's the gold standard vs Bottom 10 teams snd wr need more practice vs some Yop4/8 teams for us to work it our no doubt.  But I am a half glass FULL person and really believe we could get those flags if we could get our completely defensive approach and also get our young players from CAsey plus trade and draft choices  this year it can happen in 2024. No injuries to speak of of course. 

4 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

We had the sixth best forward line in the AFL based on points kicked with most of our tall forwards injured for most of the year.  The concept that we have an almost dysfunctional forward line is a fallacy. 

I think you are playing tricks with the word dysfunctional Star !!  Results don't lie !!