PODCAST: Rd 18 vs Port Adelaide

[Demonland 73,358]

Join @george_on_the_outer, @binman & I on the Demonland Podcast Monday night 18th July LIVE @ 8:30pm for breakdown of the Round 18 win against Port Adelaide.

Listen & Chat LIVE: https://demonland.com/podcast

Call: 03 9016 3666

Skype: Demonland31

[Demonland 73,358]

If there is anything in particular from the match that you wish us to discuss or you have a question or comment then let us know here.

[Deeoldfart 8,094]

This is an obvious question, but  I think it warrants detailed analysis going into September.

Our forward half just isn’t working right now, and hasn’t for much of the season (or at least since TMac was injured).  
Do the panel see this as primarily a personnel problem, a form problem,  a problem of cohesion, or a problem with our entries?  Is it too late in the season to experiment with different personnel?  The recent ‘experiments’ (Weid, M.Brown, Melksham, Bedford) haven’t borne much fruit.

[Demonland 73,358]

Excellent question. We'll discuss it tonight.

I think Kozzy's 6 goals masks the problem a little bit despite Ben Brown playing well (he could have had 4 goals). I know that the Weid experiment has failed and they aren't willing to pull the pin and try JVR early but Ben Brown needs help.

[demoncat 1,570]

Following on from @Deeoldfart’s question - do we think that our experiment with a smaller forward line has run its course? As much as I love having Bedford in the team, I think there were still times yesterday when we were crying out for another tall forward 50 target (even though our entries got better throughout the game). 
 

Personally I think that we should bring back the two talls structure for the rest of the season and give one of Weid or JVR a run at the last four or five games. That way, they either have had preparation for a finals campaign or - if fit - TMac can slot right back into his usual role without reintroducing a structure that hasn’t been utilised for two months. 

As always, looking forward to the pod and curious to hear you thoughts. Go Dees!
 

Edited July 18, 2022 by demoncat

[Demonland 73,358]

52 minutes ago, demoncat said:

Following on from @Deeoldfart’s question - do we think that our experiment with a smaller forward line has run its course? As much as I love having Bedford in the team, I think there were still times yesterday when we were crying out for another tall forward 50 target (even though our entries got better throughout the game). 
 

Personally I think that we should bring back the two talls structure for the rest of the season and give one of Weid or JVR a run at the last four or five games. That way, they either have had preparation for a finals campaign or - if fit - TMac can slot right back into his usual role without reintroducing a structure that hasn’t been utilised for two months. 

As always, looking forward to the pod and curious to hear you thoughts. Go Dees!
 

I agree with you in regards to bringing in either Weid or JVR (although I don't think they will bring in JVR) in order to prepare for the finals particularly if there is a chance that TMac will be right to go for finals.

Bedford had a great game against the Lions however I have not seen him perform anywhere near that level in any other game he has played for the Dees. Perhaps that was the aberration. I would prefer the extra tall.

We'll most definitely be discussing this on tonights show and no doubt it will continue to be a topic of discussion as we head into finals. Our forward and the connection to it are most definitely our weakest link at the moment.

[D4Life 2,579]

I look forward to tonight’s podcast as always!

Jordan got a lot of it and covered a fair amount of ground, but how long he takes to kick the ball when he gets it after marking - never takes first option, goes back slowly waits then kicks it long down the line.

His general ball is doesn’t benefit Demons from what I see.

Your thoughts please on Jordan and if we replaced him who would you put on the wing. 

Many other posters think he was really good on Sunday, perhaps I’m overly focussed on his negatives.

[Demonland 73,358]

We'll be LIVE in 10 minutes.

Listen & Chat LIVE: https://demonland.com/podcast

Call: 03 9016 3666

Skype: Demonland31

[Guest]

Thank you @binmanfor bringing up BT’s “rare form of body dyslexia” when talking about the Dixon/Gussy incident. At the time, I was thoroughly confused and just put it down to drinking one too many. 😆 

[Demonland 73,358]

 

[binman 44,326]

4 hours ago, D4Life said:

I look forward to tonight’s podcast as always!

Jordan got a lot of it and covered a fair amount of ground, but how long he takes to kick the ball when he gets it after marking - never takes first option, goes back slowly waits then kicks it long down the line.

His general ball is doesn’t benefit Demons from what I see.

Your thoughts please on Jordan and if we replaced him who would you put on the wing. 

Many other posters think he was really good on Sunday, perhaps I’m overly focussed on his negatives.

Sorry, we didn't get to this.

I think Jordon was excellent in this game and has been all season.

On being slow to release the ball, i suspect it is function of his role to a large degree.

He and langers are often used as outlet, bail out options on the wing when we are transitioning the ball. In that scenario he often  has nothing to kick to forward of the ball as our forwards have pushed up to help the defence and are madly trying to get back to the forward line. So langers and Jordon are forced to hold onto the ball, or in langers case run with it. 

Also, i'm sure it's a team rule to only kick the ball quickly if there a clear option ahead. Better to be tackled, and get a handball off under pressure, then dump kick straight to an intercept defender. Holding onto it also allows the forwards to get set. And when they are forced to kick, they kick as high and as long as possible. 

Salem does this all the time (hold onto the ball), as does Hibbo and Gus. Interestingly they are half back flankers, and Jordon and langers often play as quasi HFB flankers as well.

So perhaps it is also something about the defensive role that means it is more likely they don't kick the ball quickly if it risks a turnover. Which would make sense becuase any turnover from inside the defensive 50 metre arc is likely to result in a scoring opportunity.

That approach reflects goody's defence first philosophy. Sure going quick increases the chance we will score. But it also increases the chance of the opposition scoring. Defence trumps offence, so when in doubt hold onto it. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by binman

[Deeoldfart 8,094]

Thanks for another enjoyable poddy folks, and especially for taking the time to canvass the issues confronting our forward line in the absence of TMac.  

[D4Life 2,579]

11 hours ago, binman said:

Sorry, we didn't get to this.

I think Jordon was excellent in this game and has been all season.

On being slow to release the ball, i suspect it is function of his role to a large degree.

He and langers are often used as outlet, bail out options on the wing when we are transitioning the ball. In that scenario he often  has nothing to kick to forward of the ball as our forwards have pushed up to help the defence and are madly trying to get back to the forward line. So langers and Jordon are forced to hold onto the ball, or in langers case run with it. 

Also, i'm sure it's a team rule to only kick the ball quickly if there a clear option ahead. Better to be tackled, and get a handball off under pressure, then dump kick straight to an intercept defender. Holding onto it also allows the forwards to get set. And when they are forced to kick, they kick as high and as long as possible. 

Salem does this all the time (hold onto the ball), as does Hibbo and Gus. Interestingly they are half back flankers, and Jordon and langers often play as quasi HFB flankers as well.

So perhaps it is also something about the defensive role that means it is more likely they don't kick the ball quickly if it risks a turnover. Which would make sense becuase any turnover from inside the defensive 50 metre arc is likely to result in a scoring opportunity.

That approach reflects goody's defence first philosophy. Sure going quick increases the chance we will score. But it also increases the chance of the opposition scoring. Defence trumps offence, so when in doubt hold onto it. 

 

 

Thanks for taking time to respond I get the ball movement and defensive component. He did cover a huge amount of ground on Sunday with significant pressure.

Occasionally I would just like to see him take first open option.

Reflecting further on ball movement, his kicking falls in line with May kick outs always going long left towards Max, and our forward entry nearly always going into left pocket, based on being able to defend first, and the mantra we’ll win the contest and on it goes.

[djr 1,605]

Another enjoyable podcast. I listen to you guys each week while walking the dog and hence lost the dog a few times.

Edited July 19, 2022 by djr

[demoncat 1,570]

Thanks for another great pod and for taking the time to discuss our questions!  

[binman 44,326]

1 hour ago, D4Life said:

 

Reflecting further on ball movement, his kicking falls in line with May kick outs always going long left towards Max, and our forward entry nearly always going into left pocket, based on being able to defend first, and the mantra we’ll win the contest and on it goes.

Spot on

The other element is predictability and repetition. 

Sure, when things are so predictable the opposition also know what we ate going to do. 

But, when we are at our very best, which we can all agree we aren't atm, it's one thing knowing what we do, and another thing entirely to stop or take advantage of it.

The predictability can be boring I guess, though I don't find it so, but i assume in goody's assessment it increases the probability of us winning a flag. 

In finals, under huge physical and psychological pressure, predictability and repetition supports instinctive behaviours, good decision making (eg  players just 'know' there will be  teamate to handball to, even if he can't see him) and clarity of role. It simplifies things and supports getting into a flow state.

Which, i reckon, is one reason why  goody makes so few changes tactically or structuraly during the home and way season.

Edited July 19, 2022 by binman

[Demonland 73,358]

Thanks for you all of your kind words about the podcast. Feedback, whether positive or negative (constructive of course), is the only way we can improve and give the listeners what they want.

Keep the questions coming and we'll include them in the show if we can.

Also if you like the show and want to help us out then jump into the Apple Podcast app on your iPhone (if you have one) and leave us a favourable 5 star review as well as comments. It does help attract new listeners who hopefully will join our community here on Demonland as a result.

[MrFreeze 2,028]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:27 AM, Demonland said:

I agree with you in regards to bringing in either Weid or JVR (although I don't think they will bring in JVR) in order to prepare for the finals particularly if there is a chance that TMac will be right to go for finals.

Bedford had a great game against the Lions however I have not seen him perform anywhere near that level in any other game he has played for the Dees. Perhaps that was the aberration. I would prefer the extra tall.

We'll most definitely be discussing this on tonights show and no doubt it will continue to be a topic of discussion as we head into finals. Our forward and the connection to it are most definitely our weakest link at the moment.

I think the medium tall in Melk is actually the answer. Melk can play a role to shut down a 2nd or 3rd tall/rebounder and is mobile enough around ground, and big enough to contest for marks. His kicking is also an asset entering inside 50. 

Honestly we miss another quality medium tall like another Bayley or a fit Joel Smith who can play a defensive role up forward. 

JVR is too fresh and Weid doesn't contest hard enough, has average field kicking and poor mobility

 

 

[Demonland 73,358]

1 minute ago, MrFreeze said:

I think the medium tall in Melk is actually the answer. Melk can play a role to shut down a 2nd or 3rd tall/rebounder and is mobile enough around ground, and big enough to contest for marks. His kicking is also an asset entering inside 50. 

Honestly we miss another quality medium tall like another Bayley or a fit Joel Smith who can play a defensive role up forward. 

JVR is too fresh and Weid doesn't contest hard enough, has average field kicking and poor mobility

I get your point here and it is highly predicated on whether this week Melk was actually playing this role and had a hand in nullifying the intercept and rebound of Aliir. It is hard to tell not being at the actual ground to watch.

My issue in the past with Melk was his lack of pressure and tackles. He seems to have worked on this and laid 2 great tackles and I believe had 7 all up. In the past he would barely crack 1 tackle. The only remaining question mark in regards to Melk is whether he is contributing enough in terms of possession and more importantly effective possessions whether it be in the form of score involvements or actually scoring himself.

Happy for him to get a look in for a few games but we need results and quickly.

[D4Life 2,579]

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Spot on

The other element is predictability and repetition. 

Sure, when things are so predictable the opposition also know what we ate going to do. 

But, when we are at our very best, which we can all agree we aren't atm, it's one thing knowing what we do, and another thing entirely to stop or take advantage of it.

The predictability can be boring I guess, though I don't find it so, but i assume in goody's assessment it increases the probability of us winning a flag. 

In finals, under huge physical and psychological pressure, predictability and repetition supports instinctive behaviours, good decision making (eg  players just 'know' there will be  teamate to handball to, even if he can't see him) and clarity of role. It simplifies things and supports getting into a flow state.

Which, i reckon, is one reason why  goody makes so few changes tactically or structuraly during the home and way season.

I recall discussing with a very handy pro Tennis player who played Ivan Lendl, and he commented every one knew where the Lendl forehand was going, but even when you headed in that direction almost before Lendl hit it, it was so good, you couldn’t match it.

I posted yesterday about the AA level capability in our team, when combined with our contested ball and defensive strengths make us incredibly hard to beat. The other strength is as Goodwin has said over many years we’re building a system made for finals, and it was proven last year.

Your comments about repetition above are spot on, under pressure you got to what you know, and it showed in last years finals.

Could we be playing better now, yes we could. But much rather be peaking in September and injury willing with some luck, we will be in great shape come September to defend our flag!

Go Demons!

[binman 44,326]

15 minutes ago, MrFreeze said:

Honestly we miss another quality medium tall like another Bayley or a fit Joel Smith who can play a defensive role up forward.

 

In terms of a forward second tall option, i forgot about Smith to be honest.

I've always liked him as a forward, but goody seems to have locked him in as a defender.

But with Gus staying back, bowey to come back in potentially, and tomo looking good, Smith will struggle to get a spot in defence.

But he has the tank to replicate tmac's run and the leap to replicate his role in bringing the ball to ground.

In that sense he plays tall. So whilst he is not the answer long term to the second genuine tall conundrum, he might represent a short term solution to the problem.

He is also very quick and athletic, which provides a match up challenge for the opposition 

Edited July 19, 2022 by binman

[MrFreeze 2,028]

1 hour ago, binman said:

In terms of a forward second tall option, i forgot about Smith to be honest.

I've always liked him as a forward, but goody seems to have locked him in as a defender.

But with Gus staying back, bowey to come back in potentially, and tomo looking good, Smith will struggle to get a spot in defence.

But he has the tank to replicate tmac's run and the leap to replicate his role in bringing the ball to ground.

In that sense he plays tall. So whilst he is not the answer long term to the second genuine tall conundrum, he might represent a short term solution to the problem.

He is also very quick and athletic, which provides a match up challenge for the opposition 

With Rivers, Hibbo, Hunt, Bowey and Gus we have a surplus of medium defenders. I also think Smith's foot skills look worse in the backline. The footy IQ will always be an issue for him, but i'd trust him to tag a rebounder and cut off some oppo run while being a tricky match up.

I just don't see any other 2nd tall option that is viable currently,  if we have 1 to many smalls, Browny has no back up or support. If we include Weid or JVR, i don't think they have the mobility or tank to play foil properly.