I am sure there would be Clubs pining for a 30 yo downhill skier who shirks the contested balls and goes missing in crucial games and would gladly give up their first round draft pick to snare such a prize.

In fairness RR, I think Golly may have been referring to the 2002 Season. - Oh, and I think even though it was an NAB cup game CJ demonstrated enough to suggest he has arrived. If Danny Ward gets a game ahead of him from now on the Coach needs to be institutionalised.

I'll disagree with most on PJ. He was beaten in the ruck, and will be on most occasions IMO, but what I like about him is the quality of his disposal and the fact that at least he is mobile. If people thought he was terrible, what did they think of Robbie Campbell and Simon Taylor? For mine I'd persist with him.

If Danny Ward gets a game ahead of him from now on the Coach needs to be institutionalised.

Of course I agree that Ward is out and CJ is in, but I'd hate to see CJ in the backline again. He is more suited to a wing/ forward role IMO. He's had some average games when given a defensive role, whereas last night he really shone when given permission to go get the ball.

So in that regard, one is not a direct replacement for the other. However the point stand... bring on CJ!

Should he have patted him on the back and said "Bad luck of old chap, better luck next time and all that"?

What Dawson did was an everyday AFL occurrence. As an AFL coach I would be disappointed if player did not get stuck into an opposition player every time they stuffed up and I would not care what the state of the game was or if the opponent was a member of the Royal family.

Im not saying its not part of the game. I think its fine for players to verbally abuse each other and try to get into each others heads. I think what Dawson did shows a lack of respect towards his opponent. I'd say the same thing if a Dees player did it, I think its not in the spirit of things.

I think it's unfair to expect him to suddenly become a ground level player.

I don't. I expect him to become a team player. I think Robbo is now doing an Yze. He's playing for hiimself.

Neitz isn't a ground level player either, but he chased, tackled, crumbed a goal and looked interested when he didn't have the ball.

I'm worried about Robbo. I think that there is a danger he may not be a regular this year. He's capable of winning you a game or two but he's got to be more.

I think there could be a few challenging for his spot.

Brocky I accept Robbo is no O'Keefee. But he needs to be a lot more than a one trick pony. It's a good trick but he doesn't play it often enough.

I hope he comes good, but there are a few worrying signs.

This game meant nothing

If the Hawks get within 60 points of us in a real game, I will be very surprised

I think Robbo is now doing an Yze. He's playing for hiimself.

That is a very unfair comparison.

Robbo puts himself in the contest everytime, and he did a couple of clever taps when he couldn't get the ball himself.

When he is fit, he is our second best forward. I really can't understand how you can compare him to Yze, when he's stood up for us in finals and has won us a fair number of games in 2005 when everyone else went missing. Yes, 2005 was a while ago, but Robbo deserves to be given a second chance given the way he struggled with injuries last year.

Miller's got to start taking the ball in front again, too often he went chest instead of in front.

There was plenty wrong with Miller yesterday, that being the main reason. All he had to do was stick his hands in front of him and he could have taken more than a few marks yesterday, but he failed to do that on several occasions. It's worse being in line with his back since it gives the perception that he is just running, oblivious to the ball coming in his direction. I have not been impressed with him; he simply has not been improving at an acceptable rate. He's always developing and it never ends. He might have to look elsewhere in the future.

I am a fan of Bell and saw him do little wrong yesterday. He should be an important defender this year.

This game meant nothing

Then why was I devastated at the result? And still am! But I do agree that Hawthorn is not a quality team. The only thing they have going for them is their endless running, which will not get them very far.

Whoa!!

Great read guys. It's good to see a bit of anxiety and nervousness creeping into the posts again. However, it is a bit disappointing that some poster's optimism has waned so much on the back of one performance with one third of our best side not participating.

I didn't see the game. I listened to it on SEN.

My thoughts....

I wasn't expecting much of anything for us in this game due to the lead up and preparedness.

The fact is that we were not prepared for the game.

We were seriously underdone due to our first intra-club game, schedulde for Wangaratta, being cancelled, and our last, at the Dome, leaving us with only a 5 day break! In my book that is a perfect scenario if you want to look 'rusty' and 'tired'.

As already posted the game was simply a practice game. Nothing else.

We should all take comfort in the fact that some of the younger players showed they have improved on last year. Afterall this is where the coaching staff is banking that our overall team improvement is going to come from. Frawley's performance was a bonus being the a new draftee.

In case some didn't see it posted earlier, or chose to ignore it, Yze was crunched heavily early in the game and according to the SEN boundary rider, looked likely NOT to return to the field.

Perhaps it is a credit to his commitment and dedication, and dare I say it, leadership that he DID actually come back onto the ground in a game that didn't matter?

As far as the 'run and carry' game plan goes I must admit at times it sounded like the 'bad old days' of 'keepings off' under Neil Balme all over again. But like any new plan there is a tendancy to over do it and/or not execute very well.

Correct me if I am wrong but it sounded like the team were trying to run the ball into a scoring area rather than just forward of centre where they would be in good position to kick to a leading forward.

Not having seen the game I can't really come to PJ or Jamar's defence. But I still don't know how a ruckman is giong to get a possesion when standing in the middle of the ground in a team that is directed to run and carry and NOT kick to them.

If you do know please enlighten me?

The highlight of the call was undoubtably the play that led to the Chris Johnson supergoal in the second term. It had the commentators jumping out of their seats and sounded very fast and smooth.

Funnily I was a bit concerned in the second quarter when our midfield were dominating and Robbo and Neitz were the only forwards getting on the end of it. It may have just been because they were the only ones down there?

At the end of the day, one game does not MAKE a season. We have a lot of talent still to come back into the team and a bit of potential still to get a taste. Hopefully a bit of both will be in the side this weekend.

Go Dees - NAB Cup (Not Absolutely Boring Cup)

geez you guys are quick to make asumptions! warnock wasnt bad at all. if you actually watched the game closely instead of making your mind up in 2 seconds, warnock wasnt on franklin in the last quarter to start. franklin kicked 3 in the last and THEN he was then moved on him and kept him to one. i thought he was quite attacking and set up a few plays for us. how bout u so called football 'experts' do a bit more watching and get your facts straight before you start writing people off... and your own people!!! i bet the majority of people posting on this forum couldnt play footy to save themsevles.. its always easier than it looks! keep in mind thats the first hit out of the year and if your expecting spectacular things then your all kidding yourselves! shows how much you do actually know about footy. and to add to that, keep in mind hes only played 2 games. i seem to forget the day when players where meant to come in and dominate from game one!

Warnock is a very serviceable player. He has very little star quality, but, what would you expect from someone who wasn't drafted and worked his way up from the VFL. He cops criticism because it is obvious that his upside is limited and he will never be a superstar. Any league side, even the premiership ones, have at least half their side in this category, but, supporters always seem to assume that everybody who plays for them, particularly the new ones have to be world beaters.

Only 1 of franklins goals in the last quater you could blame on his direct opponent, and that was warnock just let him spin onto his left foot so easily and considering he doesnt have a right foot thats unforgivable, the rest were from team mates turning the ball over and franklin getting lucky. I dont know why Frawley didnt get more of a go at him, he was doing fine and even running of him and setting up goals in the 2nd quater. Really impressed with his recovery in contests.

Deefan, i think you're being way to critical of Robbo, he did do some good defensive work like that intercept and smother of taylors handball in one piece of play, personally i'd be very suprised if he didnt kick 50+ goals this season.

The thoughtful posts critical of Warnock, do not do so on the basis that Franklin got three in the last. Franklin got those kicks from midfield turnovers further afield.

The comments on Warnock are a reasonable assessment of where he is at now. No one stated he had to be a world beater. Top 8 teams have players who are generally serviceable at AFL. Warnock needs to demonstrate he is up to that standard. He has the job in front of him.

Fan's observations on Robbo are closer to the truth than most give credit. The game is evolving and Robbo's work effort when the ball hits the ground needs to tighten up and he needs to cover his opponent up the ground. His defensive work will be tested more this year and he needs to lift his rating. If he is to kick 50+ goals he has to do more than just take the big grab.

If he is to kick 50+ goals he has to do more than just take the big grab.

oh, Rhino, please don't rob us of 50+ screamers from Robbo! Let's go Robbo, lets go!!!

I think everyone has overrated Jones game, but I'll watch the replay and keep an open mind.

I've seen the replay. Jones was good. In fact I think he was very good when you take into account that he is a second year player, he was one of our two inside mids on the night and he was against Hodge, Mitchell and Crawford.

Franky I've seen your comments on Bell here and elsewhere. I've a mate who said before the game that he really wanted Belly to succeed. He'd canned him all last year. Bell kept Williams to one possession for no result in the first half. He canned Bell at halftime.

Bell plays in the back line and will be beaten by opponents on occasions. He'll get tackled with the ball and he'll make mistakes.

But he beat a very good opponent on Sunday.

If you want to look at the negatives you'll never see his strengths because he does the hard things. He leaves his man to help team mates (this led to Williams second goal), he'll try and pick the best option. He'll go into a pack and fight for the ball. And when you do that you open yourself up for mistakes.

You're probably more impressed with the "give it to me" tactics of Daniel Ward and Adem Yze. Ward won't make many mistakes because he'll never go where there is any pressure. He'll just leave his man, run up the ground, turn it over and hope to hell Belly holds the backline together as he sees his man running free. And lets not start on Yze.

If you hated Belly's game you must have just about shot Carroll. Dropped chest marks, poor disposal and brainless free kicks given away.

Belly will aways give you things to criticize, thank heavens.

I had to read that twice. Good stuff.

Bell plays in the back line and will be beaten by opponents on occasions. He'll get tackled with the ball and he'll make mistakes.

But he beat a very good opponent on Sunday.

Williams didnt play well or Bell beat him, your choice.

Carroll hasnt been lauded far and wide unduly, he has built his reputation on many great games in in important matches.

He had to work hard to get support on this site. Bell hasnt had that hard a run.

I believe Carroll's tackle on Fraser Gherig saved ND's arse and burnt Grant Thomas's.

How important is that? Another debate....

If you want to compare how many good games Carrol has played against Bell's, you may well win as you would have many happy campers agreeing with you and you would spin a fancy tale.

Whether it had a semblance of truth or balance may not be the point.

Carroll hasnt been lauded far and wide unduly, he has built his reputation on many great games in in important matches.

You can't argue with that, but let's go back a few years... did you witness some of Carroll's work pre 2005?

Like for example, that game in Geelong where Kent 'I'm a dud' Kingsley kicked 8 goals on him? It was the most deplorable performance by a defender I remember seeing.

In fact, many thought he was gone at the start of 2005, and it wasn't until he became fit and got the opportunity to play a significant run of games, that he became the defender that he is today.

Now compare that to Bell, he we know has struggled with OP for over a year now. He hasn't had the opportunity that Carroll has had over the last year, until the very end of 2006. And I would like you to name one game since Bell became free of his OP, where he was clearly beaten by his opponent. Honestly, I can't remember even one. He was great in both finals, as was Carroll, and he was better on Sunday.

BTW, this is in no way me having a go at Carroll. I'm just trying to prove to you that given the same opportunity, Bell could be just as successful as Carroll (and he has better disposal too).

Not every player makes an impact straight away. I think we forget how many years the club invested in the likes of Carroll, Robbo, Junior and even Bruce before they became decent players. It just does not happen over-night... unless you're a freak like Brock McLean, and he's obviously made us all very spoilt.

In regards to Lance Franklin I would like to see us play Bruce on him when we meet.

I'm yet to see Franklin dominate a game with powerful overhead marking. He gets most of his goals at ground level or on the lead. He needs a mobile opponent.

I'm also not convinced with his attitude. He loves a goal (possibly too much) and does not appear to show any respect for his opponent. Bruce could run off him and really hurt him.

It's similar to the Tarrant tactic last year.

Whether it had a semblance of truth or balance may not be the point.

A point I think you've missed.

I'm talking about the type of game Bell plays and the sort of opponents the coach asks him to play on.

In regards Carroll. I was talking about Sunday's game. Not his career.

Each to their own. I see you're in the camp of "if Bell beats his man his man had a bad night, if Bell is beaten, he's no good".

Hard to win on that basis.

oh, Rhino, please don't rob us of 50+ screamers from Robbo! Let's go Robbo, lets go!!!

Finks, I am thinking that Robbo might dish a few chances off to others!

I share your queries over Franklin Scoop. Could be something special but I am not sure yet.

Interesting argument.

From my POV, Bell was excellent on the weekend. Williams did virtually nothing and Bell was solid at the back cleaning up in the way that Wrecker has done so well in the past.

As far as Carroll goes, he was excellent for us last year as a tall defender. Carroll is 26 and Bell is 21. I'm not too sure that a comparison is relevant.

With Robbo, I didn't have a problem with him at all. He was dangerous up forward and I thought he put pressure on and chased down the ground. I remember seeing him in the Hawthorn backline at stages too.

And Ward, for all his shortcomings, I think is quite important to our backline. I prefer his pace running forward and preparedness to take on the opposition than Doggy Brown's sideways movement. Both are very similar in role, but I think Ward is more valuable to us because of his pace and line breaking ability.

And Ward, for all his shortcomings, I think is quite important to our backline. I prefer his pace running forward and preparedness to take on the opposition than Doggy Brown's sideways movement. Both are very similar in role, but I think Ward is more valuable to us because of his pace and line breaking ability.

Not sure that Brown plays in the backline, I think he's part of the "midfield rotation" - however you define that. He has been training with the midfield group the last two years - maybe the FD agree that he can't actually defend.

I agree it gets blurry - where does Bartram play - midfield or back? At least he does do a job on someone whichever it is, or wherever he's required.

I reckon that's the critical thing, Ward doesn't do a job on anyone and that limits his value as a backman. Maybe he's not required to and he's the free agent and Bell and Whelan will leave the man to cover his man. I agree he can run and break the lines but his decision making and kicking is not good enough for this role IMO. Brown is definitely not a better alternative. Other alternatives are Green, Wheatley, Bate, Buckley, maybe Petterd, I like CJ in a genuine attacking role. I have been pumping up Sylvia for this role if he can get his running together but no-one seems to be interested in that.

Three tall backs - Rivers, Carroll and ?

Three small backs - Whelan, Bell and ?

quick note (or quote?) on Robo... best form of deffence is attack or are the Robbo basher's implying the best form of attack is deffence?

I agree he can run and break the lines but his decision making and kicking is not good enough for this role IMO. Brown is definitely not a better alternative. Other alternatives are Green, Wheatley, Bate, Buckley, maybe Petterd, I like CJ in a genuine attacking role. I have been pumping up Sylvia for this role if he can get his running together but no-one seems to be interested in that.

Three tall backs - Rivers, Carroll and ?

Three small backs - Whelan, Bell and ?

Couldn't agree with you more.

Yes, we need a fast-paced, line-breaking defender, but they also need to have good disposal and good decision making. It's great that Ward can run fast, but that's where it generally stops. He made so many poor decisions on Sunday, and to top it off, most of his kicks went straight into Hawthorn's hands. I'd like to see Green and Buckley rotate through there, or possibly Bruce if there is a good match-up for him (ie- Tarrant).

Three tall backs- Rivers, Carroll and Miller/Holland (Holland still has a role to play, and I have no idea what else we can do with Miller).

Three small backs- Whelan, Bell and one of Green/Buckley/Bruce/Bartram who will rotate depending on the midfield rotation.