Jump to content

Why raise Tanking again Garry?

Redleg
Redleg
in Melbourne Demons

Featured Replies

  On 17/01/2016 at 04:46, Curry & Beer said:

Again, I tend to agree with you, but then I realise that's pretty much the exact same tune we have all been singing for the last decade. Without being a negative nelly for the sake of it, I guess what I'm saying in this thread is that I'm far from convinced that we have turned a corner, and that this isn't as TGR would say, 'fool's gold'. I really need to see a bunch of tangible results this year.. even then, you have to think back to 2010/2011 when we genuinely looked good but it never came to bear. Hmm.

All I could add C&B would be that this time we set about drafting competitors who can play as opposed to kids that can play. 

  • Quote
    •  
      On 17/01/2016 at 06:09, Bombay Airconditioning said:

    All I could add C&B would be that this time we set about drafting competitors who can play as opposed to kids that can play. 

    again, not being contrary for fun, but that's just another assumption that we are all hoping is the case. I don't really know about this idea that we drafted in the past without looking for 'competitors' because to a large extent if you are a standout kid at the pointy end off the draft you are a competitor by default, or you wouldn't be there. The big thing I reckon it hinges on is the quality of our development system now vs before.

  • Quote
    • Author
      On 17/01/2016 at 02:25, daisycutter said:

    i understand the relevance of bringing up the tanking in the context of how the afl "manages" integrity within the sport.

    but turning the discussion into an afl blame game the same day the players were found guilty seemed to me to be deflecting from the guilt of essendon and the players and served to minimise that guilt or to try and apportion some of it to the afl. there certainly is a need to discuss how the afl handled this and other issues but not necessarily on such a momentous day with just a short time for the program. i'm sure efc were happy for gary to pursue that tangent at that time

    Thank you.

  • Quote
    •  
      On 16/01/2016 at 23:54, Whispering_Jack said:

    I caught up with the full FC special through you tube and I thought Garry actually raised a fair point about how the tanking investigation and charges would have been dealt with quite differently if there was an independent world body that looked into "tanking" offences. Firstly, all clubs strongly suspected of tanking would have been looked at, secondly the conduct of the investigation and the "evidence" scrutinised properly and thirdly, the pronouncements written and verbal from the AFL's CEO as to what "tanking" did and did not constitute* would have to be taken into account. I'm not sure in those circumstances whether the matter would have gone as far as it did, remembering that 2 QC's had provided opinions to the effect that the charges could not be sustained in a court of law.

    * granted there are differing views of what tanking means, Demetriou's statements about what was permitted eliminated most if not all of the misconceptions people had about tanking - eg resting players, playing them out of normal positions, experimenting with tactics etc. He sanctioned all of these things in articles, television interviews and in one talk given by him for a charity function I attended when it was raised in the context of Carlton in 2007.

    all true Jack, but the AFL still resists placing the first 8 - 10 draft picks into a raffle drawn from a hat... so as to remove from AFL clubs the certainty of ladder positioning as a means of getting player 'X' .

  • Quote
      On 16/01/2016 at 23:56, ILLDieADemon said:

    It makes you think, if we tanked thinking "everyone else does it and gets away with it so why don't we". What's to say that was the same state of mind the EFL had with there injections? 

    Who are we to know how many clubs have tried something like this which was swept under the AFL houses rug before WADA got hold of it considering the number of players that have been court for doping since this investigation on the EFC has started.  

    There was a team who won 3 in a row in the early 2000 who's midfield looked freakishly bigger then any other club in the AFL. 

    Is whole issue kinda makes me question a lot of past clubs now.

    steroids were around in the 80's... i know a friend who was on the hawks list at the time... he calls it,  'the elephant juice'.

     

     

  • Quote

      On 16/01/2016 at 22:19, mauriesy said:

    Everything the club has suffered is a punishment for their drug program.

    But if you want to be vindictive, go right ahead.

    Sorry, you think it is vindictive to apply a punishment to a club (EFC) that used an experimental program of banned drugs and who knows what else on young men under their care in order to gain an unfair advantage against their competitors.

    I reiterate. Since the players have been found guilty of using PED's the club has received no penalty just concessions. Asking for a penalty for organising this program is hardly vindictive.

    Further, the EFC and the AFL have taken legal action against one of the players (Hal Hunter) in that program because he wants to know what they injected into his body.

    The EFC and the AFL are morally bankrupt organisations and they need to be shown as such. I am not vindictive, I want justice for the non cheats and players that were made guinea pigs. 

     

  • Quote

    Yes, I think it's vindictive. Essendon have (quite rightly) been heavily punished and will be a basket case for years. Their supporters will have to put up with years of taunting about drug cheats. Yet you ask for more. I'd question whether it's really just punishment or justice you want.

    The player suspensions obviously came from WADA. The club punishment as a result of the diabolical program is the AFL's responsibility, and they have already done it through fines, draft penalties, Hird's suspension (and Dank's life ban as a result of the AFL drugs tribunal). You can't punish them twice for the same error. All the perpetrators (Dank, Robinson, Hird, Thompson etc) are no longer at the club (three by sacking), and I don't see the point.

    The recent team concessions came from the AFL, just to keep Essendon fielding a team. They're hardly a 'reward'. I don't think that's a bad result, and there's no way I'd want to be in their position.

  • Quote
      On 18/01/2016 at 00:51, mauriesy said:

    Yes, I think it's vindictive. Essendon have (quite rightly) been heavily punished and will be a basket case for years. Their supporters will have to put up with years of taunting about drug cheats. Yet you ask for more. I'd question whether it's really just punishment or justice you want.

    The player suspensions obviously came from WADA. The club punishment as a result of the diabolical program is the AFL's responsibility, and they have already done it through fines, draft penalties, Hird's suspension (and Dank's life ban as a result of the AFL drugs tribunal). You can't punish them twice for the same error. All the perpetrators (Dank, Robinson, Hird, Thompson etc) are no longer at the club (three by sacking), and I don't see the point.

    The recent team concessions came from the AFL, just to keep Essendon fielding a team. They're hardly a 'reward'. I don't think that's a bad result, and there's no way I'd want to be in their position.

    Until last week the players had not been found guilty of using PED's. The penalties the club had received prior to that judgement were for other indiscretions, notably failure to keep records.

    How could the EFC have been penalised for something they had not been found guilty of?

    Now that they have been found guilty they should have some penalty. Simple.

    Please explain to me the penalty they received for organising and running a program resulting in 34 players being found guilty of using PED's? No, do not refer to governance issues I mean since guilt was proven.

     

  • Quote
    •  
    • Author
      On 18/01/2016 at 01:11, ManDee said:

    Until last week the players had not been found guilty of using PED's. The penalties the club had received prior to that judgement were for other indiscretions, notably failure to keep records.

    How could the EFC have been penalised for something they had not been found guilty of?

    Now that they have been found guilty they should have some penalty. Simple.

    Please explain to me the penalty they received for organising and running a program resulting in 34 players being found guilty of using PED's? No, do not refer to governance issues I mean since guilt was proven.

     

    I think you are going to have to accept the fact, that the AFL dealt with the EFC, on the basis of their running a program of injecting players with substances, without proper supervision and record keeping. Therefore, according to the AFL, they would have already been dealt with, on the issues, leading to the current CAS finding. They won't double dip. 

    Calling it a governance issue, does not change what they did, or were punished for.

  • Quote
      On 18/01/2016 at 01:11, ManDee said:

    Please explain to me the penalty they received for organising and running a program resulting in 34 players being found guilty of using PED's? No, do not refer to governance issues I mean since guilt was proven.

    But the governance issues are inextricably entwined. It seems to me that WADA and ASADA are happy with the result. Either they haven't got the power to prosecute the club or they're not interested in further action. You'd best ask them.

    I'd suspect it would be useless for them to keep going, given the governance penalties that have already been applied by the AFL.

    I'm satisfied that Essendon has been punished enough without dragging it on for another few years.

  • Quote

      On 18/01/2016 at 01:26, mauriesy said:

    But the governance issues are inextricably entwined. It seems to me that WADA and ASADA are happy with the result. Either they haven't got the power to prosecute the club or they're not interested in further action. You'd best ask them.

    I'd suspect it would be useless for them to keep going, given the governance penalties that have already been applied by the AFL.

    I'm satisfied that Essendon has been punished enough without dragging it on for another few years.

    OK, we shall agree to differ. It is now proven that 34 players used PED's.

    Last year when they were found not guilty EFC did not ask for their money back as they knew that the penalties were for governance issues not cheating.

  • Quote
      On 18/01/2016 at 00:51, mauriesy said:

    Yes, I think it's vindictive. Essendon have (quite rightly) been heavily punished and will be a basket case for years. Their supporters will have to put up with years of taunting about drug cheats. Yet you ask for more. I'd question whether it's really just punishment or justice you want.

    The player suspensions obviously came from WADA. The club punishment as a result of the diabolical program is the AFL's responsibility, and they have already done it through fines, draft penalties, Hird's suspension (and Dank's life ban as a result of the AFL drugs tribunal). You can't punish them twice for the same error. All the perpetrators (Dank, Robinson, Hird, Thompson etc) are no longer at the club (three by sacking), and I don't see the point.

    The recent team concessions came from the AFL, just to keep Essendon fielding a team. They're hardly a 'reward'. I don't think that's a bad result, and there's no way I'd want to be in their position.

    yes Mauriesy, agreed.  Why hurt a club, for individuals bad behaviour/judgements from that club, they are the cause of these issues, under the clubs banner.

     

    its these individuals IMO who should have lifetime bans from all sports.  this should imo come from WADA or ASADA.

     

     

  • Quote
      On 18/01/2016 at 00:51, mauriesy said:

    Yes, I think it's vindictive. Essendon have (quite rightly) been heavily punished and will be a basket case for years. Their supporters will have to put up with years of taunting about drug cheats. Yet you ask for more. I'd question whether it's really just punishment or justice you want.

    The player suspensions obviously came from WADA. The club punishment as a result of the diabolical program is the AFL's responsibility, and they have already done it through fines, draft penalties, Hird's suspension (and Dank's life ban as a result of the AFL drugs tribunal). You can't punish them twice for the same error. All the perpetrators (Dank, Robinson, Hird, Thompson etc) are no longer at the club (three by sacking), and I don't see the point.

    The recent team concessions came from the AFL, just to keep Essendon fielding a team. They're hardly a 'reward'. I don't think that's a bad result, and there's no way I'd want to be in their position.

    I am sure the AFL could find a way if they wanted to :) I don't think they will, as they clearly seem more interested in sweeping the past under the carpet. If there is anything left for them to do, it is to help Hal Hunter et al find out what really was injected, rather than try to stop it, and to find out what Reid did or didn't know or do. But that would be expecting common sense to prevail ... 

  • Quote

    Why wasn't Freo and North up for tanking last round last year.?

    AFL is just gutless.

  • Quote

    • Archived

    This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

    Go to topic listing

    Featured Content

    • PREVIEW: Essendon

      As the focus of the AFL moves exclusively to South Australia for Gather Round, the question is raised as to what are we going to get from the  Melbourne Football Club this weekend? Will it be a repeat of the slop fest of the last three weeks that have seen the team score a measly 174 points and concede 310 or will a return to the City of Churches and the scene where they performed at their best in 2024 act as a wakeup call and bring them out of their early season reverie? 
      Or will the sleepy Dees treat their fans to a reenactment of their lazy effort from the first Gather Round of two years ago when they allowed the Bombers to trample all over them on a soggy and wet Adelaide Oval? The two examples from above tell us how fickle form can be in football. Last year, a committed group of players turned up in Adelaide with a businesslike mindset. They had a plan, went in confidently and hard for the football and kicked winning scores against both home teams in a difficult environment for visitors. And they repeated that sort of effort later in the season when they played Essendon at the MCG. Unfortunately, performances like these went against the grain of what Melbourne has been producing from virtually midway through 2024 and extending right through to the present day. This is a game between two clubs who have faltered over the past couple of years because their disposal efficiency is appalling. Neither of them can hit the side of a barn door but history tells us that every once in a while such teams have their lucky days or come up against an opponent in even worse shape and hence, one of them will come up trumps in this match.

        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 0 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland

    • PREGAME: Essendon

      Facing the very real and daunting prospect of starting the season with five straight losses, the Demons head to South Australia for the annual Gather Round, where they’ll take on the Bombers in search of their first win of the year. Who comes in, and who comes out?

        • Thanks
      • 259 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland

    • NON-MFC: Round 05

      Gather Round is here, kicking off with a Thursday night blockbuster as Adelaide faces Geelong. The Crows will be out for redemption after a controversial loss last week. Saturday starts with the Magpies taking on the Swans. Collingwood will be eager to cement their spot in the top eight, while Sydney is hot on their heels. In the Barossa Valley, two rising sides go head-to-head in a fascinating battle to prove they're the real deal. Later, Carlton and West Coast face off at Adelaide Oval, both desperate to notch their first win of the season. The action then shifts to Norwood, where the undefeated Lions will aim to keep their streak alive against the Bulldogs. Sunday’s games begin in the Barossa with Richmond up against Fremantle. In Norwood, the Saints will be looking to take a scalp when they come up against the Giants. The round concludes with a fiery rematch of last year's semi-final, as the Hawks seek revenge for their narrow loss to Port Adelaide. Who are you tipping this week and what are the best results for the Demons besides us winning?

        • Thanks
      • 17 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland

    • CASEY: Geelong

      There was a time in the second quarter of the game at the Cattery on Friday afternoon when the Casey Demons threatened to take the game apart against the Cats. The Demons had been well on top early but were struggling to convert their ascendancy over the ground until Tom Fullarton’s burst of three goals in the space of eight minutes on the way to a five goal haul and his best game for the club since arriving from Brisbane at the end of 2023. He was leading, marking and otherwise giving his opponents a merry dance as Casey grabbed a three goal lead in the blink of an eye. Fullarton has now kicked ten goals in Casey’s three matches and, with Melbourne’s forward conversion woes, he is definitely in with a chance to get his first game with the club in next week’s Gather Round in Adelaide. Despite the tall forward’s efforts - he finished with 19 disposals and eight marks and had four hit outs as back up to Will Verrall in the second half - it wasn’t enough as Geelong reigned in the lead through persistent attacks and eventually clawed their way to the lead early in the last and held it till they achieved the end aim of victory.

        • Like
      • 0 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland

    • REPORT: Geelong

      I was disappointed to hear Goody say at his post match presser after the team’s 39 point defeat against Geelong that "we're getting high quality entry, just poor execution" because Melbourne’s problems extend far beyond that after its 0 - 4 start to the 2025 football season. There are clearly problems with poor execution, some of which were evident well before the current season and were in play when the Demons met the Cats in early May last year and beat them in a near top-of-the-table clash that saw both sides sitting comfortably in the top four after round eight. Since that game, the Demons’ performances have been positively Third World with only five wins in 19 games with a no longer majestic midfield and a dysfunctional forward line that has become too easy for opposing coaches to counter. This is an area of their game that is currently being played out as if they were all completely panic-stricken.

        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 0 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland

    • NON-MFC: Round 04

      Round 4 kicks off with a blockbuster on Thursday night as traditional rivals Collingwood and Carlton clash at the MCG, with the Magpies looking to assert themselves as early-season contenders and the Blues seeking their first win of the season. Saturday opens with Gold Coast hosting Adelaide, a key test for the Suns as they aim to back up their big win last week, while the Crows will be looking to keep their perfect record intact. Reigning wooden spooners Richmond have the daunting task of facing reigning premiers Brisbane at the ‘G and the Lions will be eager to reaffirm their premiership credentials after a patchy start. Saturday night sees North Melbourne take on Sydney at Marvel Stadium, with the Swans looking to build on their first win of the season last week against a rebuilding Roos outfit. Sunday’s action begins with GWS hosting West Coast at ENGIE Stadium, a game that could get ugly very early for the visitors. Port Adelaide vs St Kilda at Adelaide Oval looms as a interesting clash, with both clubs form being very hard to read. The round wraps up with Fremantle taking on the Western Bulldogs at Optus Stadium in what could be a fierce contest between two sides with top-eight ambitions. Who are you tipping this week and what are the best results for the Demons besides us winning?

        • Thanks
      • 273 replies
      Demonland
      Demonland
    View All