The Ollie Whines Lounge

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I must one of a few that genuinely doesn't care and enjoy seeing young kids play well. I'm admittedly angry that he's playing well while the guy we chose over him (when we appeared split between the two) can't get a kick at VFL level. But that's how drafting works. One kid got drafted into a team now destined for greatness, the other into one of the worst teams of all time. If it wasn't us that picked Toump over Wines, it would have been someone else.

Yep.

And remember we had Viney at 26 or something. At the time Viney was rated better than Wines and very similar game styles. We would have been taking 2 inside aggressive mids instead of taking one plus an outsider classy mid who was rated higher anyway.

Call was the right one at the time given the info available.

[nutbean 8,838]

Call was the right one at the time given the info available.

Nonsense - obviously you weren't gifted a crystal ball and rear vision mirror like many on here.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Nonsense - obviously you weren't gifted a crystal ball and rear vision mirror like many on here.

Indeed. I lost those items a while back, along with my 20/20 hindsight goggles and tarot cards.

Have been attempting to get by with reasoning and logic these past few years.

So far it has been an unmitigated disaster.

If you happen to find any of my lost magical items, please let me know. I'm offering several beanie babies as a reward.

[dpositive 1,665]

I didn't and don't have too much concern with drafting. It's a bit of a lottery obviously and outcomes are dependent upon development and opportunity. I am pleased with whoever puts on a Melbourne jumper as they are ours.

But it would be an excellent opportunity to allow our dland selectors nominate and keep this as a historical thread for future reference

That is no comment no alternative opinion just everyone who wants to participate to select their choices once this retained and used as reference if necessary in future discussion

Can such a closed thread be created by the magicians who provide this site?

[beelzebub 23,376]

Yep.

And remember we had Viney at 26 or something. At the time Viney was rated better than Wines and very similar game styles. We would have been taking 2 inside aggressive mids instead of taking one plus an outsider classy mid who was rated higher anyway.

Call was the right one at the time given the info available.

But was it ? Given the club OUGHT to have done its diligence and would therefor have been in a much more knowledgeable position than many of the so called media experts (of which 90% are dlckheads ). The club should have been aware ( more than it seems ) of Jimmy's hip problems etc. This should have discounted heavily his worth when using such a highly valued pick. Wines didnt present any of this concern. Most pundits had both players at around the same mark and many thought it a monty Wines would go go Melbourne as its( he ) exactly what we needed. Indeed there seems incredulous disbelief amongst some at AAMI park that Jimmy's name was even called out.

What it WAS was the decision made, but was it the right one. I'd say no. Bang for buck these two kids are miles apart.

The only hope the club really can harbour is that Dimitri becomes at least a decent player > I doubt anyone seriously thinks at the club he'll be the star that many here on the boards think he's destined to be.

The club can indeed use ( and needs ) a fair number of good decent mids. lets hope he at least gets to this. The boat has sailed on getting the gun recruit .

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

I remember someone saying at draft time if MFC get Viney and Wines there will be explosions in the MFC midfield. Still didn't take him.

Sometimes wonder if Viney wasn't F/S would we have taken him?

[nutbean 8,838]

But was it ? Given the club OUGHT to have done its diligence and would therefor have been in a much more knowledgeable position than many of the so called media experts (of which 90% are dlckheads ). The club should have been aware ( more than it seems ) of Jimmy's hip problems etc. This should have discounted heavily his worth when using such a highly valued pick. Wines didnt present any of this concern. Most pundits had both players at around the same mark and many thought it a monty Wines would go go Melbourne as its( he ) exactly what we needed. Indeed there seems incredulous disbelief amongst some at AAMI park that Jimmy's name was even called out.

What it WAS was the decision made, but was it the right one. I'd say no. Bang for buck these two kids are miles apart.

The only hope the club really can harbour is that Dimitri becomes at least a decent player > I doubt anyone seriously thinks at the club he'll be the star that many here on the boards think he's destined to be.

The club can indeed use ( and needs ) a fair number of good decent mids. lets hope he at least gets to this. The boat has sailed on getting the gun recruit .

Need to pick you up on one point - - Most pundits had Watts and Niknat around the same pundits - most pundits did NOT have Toumpas and Wines around the same pick. Toumpas was clearly the preferred pick and expected to go top 3. Even Jack Viney had him as the preferred pick but commented that he didn't think he would get to our pick.

I don't think it proves that pundits don't know - I think it proves that it is a lottery - in fact GWS , Bulldogs and us all got it wrong as he is clearly the standout ( at this stage) of that draft.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I remember someone saying at draft time if MFC get Viney and Wines there will be explosions in the MFC midfield. Still didn't take him.

Sometimes wonder if Viney wasn't F/S would we have taken him?

are you kidding? we got him about 20 picks after where all the experts said he would go

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Need to pick you up on one point - - Most pundits had Watts and Niknat around the same pundits - most pundits did NOT have Toumpas and Wines around the same pick. Toumpas was clearly the preferred pick and expected to go top 3. Even Jack Viney had him as the preferred pick but commented that he didn't think he would get to our pick.

I don't think it proves that pundits don't know - I think it proves that it is a lottery - in fact GWS , Bulldogs and us all got it wrong as he is clearly the standout ( at this stage) of that draft.

Yep. He's looking better than O'Rouke as well. I wonder if the GWS boards have "O'Rourke vs Wines" threads.

[nutbean 8,838]

Just been looking back through drafts - anyone who doesn't think that it is a turkey shoot..well...look at 2009...

We keep bemoaning not taking Dustin Martin - have a look at that draft and see how many mistakes were made.

Poster say we could have taken Fyffe - but that was Freo's second pick not their first so they didnt even rate that him as highly as Moribito.

We could have had Lewis Jetta but that was the Swans second pick - they preferred Rohan over him.

Essendon took Melksham before Carlisle.

Geelongs third pick was Christensen at 40 - the best for Geelong from that draft.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Need to pick you up on one point - - Most pundits had Watts and Niknat around the same pundits - most pundits did NOT have Toumpas and Wines around the same pick. Toumpas was clearly the preferred pick and expected to go top 3. Even Jack Viney had him as the preferred pick but commented that he didn't think he would get to our pick.

I don't think it proves that pundits don't know - I think it proves that it is a lottery - in fact GWS , Bulldogs and us all got it wrong as he is clearly the standout ( at this stage) of that draft.

not really.. its often a fine cut through many in the first 10

AFL phantom draft 2012 Toumpas 4 Wines 5

The Footy Almanac 2012 Picks Toumpas 2 Wines 4

The Hun's Landdsberger/Clark phantom draft Toumpas 4 Wines 7 As Did the Aged's Emma Quayle

Knightmare had Toumaps 5 Wines 8

Youre splitting hairs Nut in my book if t you really think there was much between many of these kids

[ignition. 1,466]

Presenting The Ollie Whines Lounge. A place where all the ollie whiners can come to mingle.

What's that? Ollie Wines had 46 disposals, 18 clearances, 14 tackles and kicked 7 goals? Need to cry into someone's shoulder?

This is the place for you.

Forget creating new threads to tell the world how angry you are.

Forget "gee that Wines kid goes alright, thanks Mark" in every second thread.

This is your one stop shop for the great big sook.

In The Ollie Whines Lounge, you can bleat and moan to your heart's content, free from the judgement of others. Never again will your insistence that you "knew Wines would be a star" fall on deaf, uninterested ears.

Enjoy our unrivalled selection of tissues and hard liquor.

Relax on our vinyl couches where the tears just roll right off.

For the dead eye dicks, you will find our dart boards, each with a bullseye featuring either Mark Neeld or that awful Jimmy Toumpas. Show your friends who really wanted Wines more.

After hours and feeling that impending mix of sadness and anger? Retreat to our Self Flagellation Room (proudly sponsored by BBO).

Whine in comfort and style in The Ollie Whines Lounge.

And when you leave, please, for the love of god, shut the [censored] up about Ollie Wines.

I must say I love the thread P-man, along with the witty title.

I'm sure at some point I'll be sitting here on the couch.

Edited September 15, 2014 by ignition.

[nutbean 8,838]

Go back to 2008.

Garry Lyon suggested we try and raid Geelong and take Steven Motlop. That was Geelongs 3rd pick. Maybe we should raid them and take their 2nd pick from that draft - Tom Gillies...ohh...wait.....

[nutbean 8,838]

not really.. its often a fine cut through many in the first 10

AFL phantom draft 2012 Toumpas 4 Wines 5

The Footy Almanac 2012 Picks Toumpas 2 Wines 4

The Hun's Landdsberger/Clark phantom draft Toumpas 4 Wines 7 As Did the Aged's Emma Quayle

Knightmare had Toumaps 5 Wines 8

Youre splitting hairs Nut in my book if t you really think there was much between many of these kids

I'll stop splitting when you direct me to one ( all I need is one) of the so called experts who actually had Wines rated above Toumpas.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I'll stop splitting when you direct me to one ( all I need is one) of the so called experts who actually had Wines rated above Toumpas.

mate..is a bit like the first 5 rows of a grand prix.. there may be a second between 1st and 10th. its not much and it can be invalidated in the first 500m

The draft is often mocked as just this side of a lottery for good reason. Roos reckons its worth even less.

So much is seemingly placed into this somewhat subjective contrivance and history suggests youd be better off throwing darts at a board.

The point is the club picked the wrong kid. It's criteria was obviously flawed. ( but hey nothing new there )

These experts proved again they are very good at getting much wrong but for reasons unknown many then use their subjective ideas as testament to why certain blokes went at this pick or that.

There are without doubt kids who are better than others but its more like theres 10 A' a dozen B's and the rest. Lots of journos are getting paid for making shlt up Id suggest

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I can't abide these 'draft is a lottery' comments. Below is 2008/09/10 drafts, first round on the left, second on the right.

As you can see the difference is massive in overall quality and strike rate

[nutbean 8,838]

The draft is often mocked as just this side of a lottery for good reason. Roos reckons its worth even less.

So much is seemingly placed into this somewhat subjective contrivance and history suggests youd be better off throwing darts at a board.

Could not agree more - and add to that, that we have been drafting young kids and putting them into our putrid club.

So no doubt in my mind that we can clearly say that looking back Wines was who we should have taken.

So carrying on your theme - most of the picks we have taken have nothing to do with the fact of poor recruiting - it is more to do with that we are pretty bad at picking the lottery numbers.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I can't abide these 'draft is a lottery' comments. Below is 2008/09/10 drafts, first round on the left, second on the right.

As you can see the difference is massive in overall quality and strike rate

all I see is names and numbers... any coherent point has escaped me. I look forward to you making it.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Could not agree more - and add to that, that we have been drafting young kids and putting them into our putrid club.

So no doubt in my mind that we can clearly say that looking back Wines was who we should have taken.

So carrying on your theme - most of the picks we have taken have nothing to do with the fact of poor recruiting - it is more to do with that we are pretty bad at picking the lottery numbers.

touche

I havent won a million yet so Im not better ( at picking lottery numbers )

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

all I see is names and numbers... any coherent point has escaped me. I look forward to you making it.

really? the list on the left carps all over the list on the right. That's because the draft is not a random lottery as you suggest. There are exceptions here and there but the overriding trend is indisputable. Got it now?

[nutbean 8,838]

I can't abide these 'draft is a lottery' comments. Below is 2008/09/10 drafts, first round on the left, second on the right.

As you can see the difference is massive in overall quality and strike rate

This proves it is a lottery - so many mistakes in that draft it can have 100 page thread of its own. So many clubs got lucky with their second picks being better than their first ( as I have said in previous threads).

All this does is highlight what I have always believed has been our problem. Take a draft pick with some raw, undeveloped talent and throw them into what was our cesspool and watch them sink. Poor culture, average to poor coaches, no demands for excellence, fitness regime years behind the pacesetters, no leaders/mentors/older talented players to ease the path for the youngsters, protect them and make them the third or fourth target instead of the first.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - who is the great white hope of the top four teams for next year - not some untried draft pick - Hawks look to Roughy, Gunston, Hodge etc, Swans look to Tippett, Hanneberry, Kennedy. Who do we look to to save us ??? An 19 year old who is yet to play a senior game....

[beelzebub 23,376]

really? the list on the left carps all over the list on the right. That's because the draft is not a random lottery as you suggest. There are exceptions here and there but the overriding trend is indisputable. Got it now?

NO..I hear what YOU think it is.. But surely closer examination actually suggest there are MORE exception than otherwise, suggesting it is just a lottery . Even a lottery you can predict with some ability numbers that are more likely to turn up but not necessarily the week you think.

Beleive what you like C and B ..please dont proffer that as proof however

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

NO..I hear what YOU think it is.. But surely closer examination actually suggest there are MORE exception than otherwise, suggesting it is just a lottery . Even a lottery you can predict with some ability numbers that are more likely to turn up but not necessarily the week you think.

Beleive what you like C and B ..please dont proffer that as proof however

It's very simple. If it was just a lottery than the right side would be just as good as the left, which it clearly isn't, by a long shot. If the logical part of your brain can't work with that, I have nothing more to say.

nutbean I agree with your post completely, it does not actually contradict what I am saying though. Obviously development is a huge part of the equation but clearly the teams of recruiters working year round to result in the picked order has a very tangible impact also.

[beelzebub 23,376]

It's very simple. If it was just a lottery than the right side would be just as good as the left, which it clearly isn't, by a long shot. If the logical part of your brain can't work with that, I have nothing more to say.

nutbean I agree with your post completely, it does not actually contradict what I am saying though. Obviously development is a huge part of the equation but clearly the teams of recruiters working year round to result in the picked order has a very tangible impact also.

Your post is possibly self contradictory . you say it is, but then it isnt. It either Is or it isnt ..its like a little bit dead or pregnant. even my viewpoint could be argues as having the same flaw and I concede that. What it all goes to I suggest is there is nothing hard and fast about this...its more than entirely subjective withing certain parameters...those being as I suggested prior...there are the A's the Bs and the rest in any draft.

No one actually portends it to BE a lottery but to be like a lottery in that there are no absolutes,No guarantees, no sure things. You take your picks , you take your chances

What is never really known til afterwards ( ie career played out...or not ) is where on any path these kids are. Are they sparkling early and fading are they decidedly slow developers have they already peaked

[Coq au vin 755]

This proves it is a lottery - so many mistakes in that draft it can have 100 page thread of its own. So many clubs got lucky with their second picks being better than their first ( as I have said in previous threads).

All this does is highlight what I have always believed has been our problem. Take a draft pick with some raw, undeveloped talent and throw them into what was our cesspool and watch them sink. Poor culture, average to poor coaches, no demands for excellence, fitness regime years behind the pacesetters, no leaders/mentors/older talented players to ease the path for the youngsters, protect them and make them the third or fourth target instead of the first.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - who is the great white hope of the top four teams for next year - not some untried draft pick - Hawks look to Roughy, Gunston, Hodge etc, Swans look to Tippett, Hanneberry, Kennedy. Who do we look to to save us ??? An 19 year old who is yet to play a senior game....

and we picked the wrong ones.