I don't come from an ALP background. My parents were too intelligent. None of us believe in socialism. I merely referred to old roots in light of Robbie's post. Unsurprisingly, that escaped you.

Howard didn't "lie". He changed his mind and risked his prime ministership. He believed in taxation reform. Sure, he sniffed the breeze, but he was a politician who believed in standing for something. He risked a lot. I'm not surprised you don't get it.

I knew you were responding to RF's post, but unless you were trying to justify your choice to lean right, why would you feel the need to even mention it? And why always refer to the intelligence of those who follow the Libs... or rather question the intelligence of those who follow a Labour govt? Those are traits shared by people on both sides of the political fence. Sometimes (well, often actually) I think you mistake arrogance for intelligence.

And sorry BH, Howard DID lie... he rode an election on the iron clad guarantee that there would never ever be a GST and then, yes, just a couple of years later he "changed his mind". If as you say, he was a true believer in tax reform, he would have believed in a GST all along, not just had a sudden epithany - in other words, he lied.

The Tory, Labor and truth-seeking media commentary on debt is a blinkered insult to people who slaving their guts out through their working lives. The public debt melodrama is but a small part of the big picture. What about the massive - and growing - PRIVATE FOREIGN DEBT. This issue truly crosses party lines. We as a nation live well beyond our means and it is not just government largesse via middle-class welfare of the Howard era, baby pay of the proposed Abbott gig, or the tendency to spend more on services of the centre-left parties. The libs bang on about government debt because they want to protect self-interest. you never hear them talking about the amount of money being borrowed off-shore to prop up the shop here in Australia. And to think Ron Barassi, Brian Dixon and Ray Groom were my footballing idols. The net total $$$ Australia owes to the rest of the world is fast approaching $800 billion, will this get in the news in the next few weeks? I doubt it.

: http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

The thing that get's me is, why is our government obligated to borrow money as opposed to printing money against capital works? We've always had the facility to do this and presumably things like the NBN could be completed without having to borrow money.

I knew you were responding to RF's post, but unless you were trying to justify your choice to lean right, why would you feel the need to even mention it? And why always refer to the intelligence of those who follow the Libs... or rather question the intelligence of those who follow a Labour govt? Those are traits shared by people on both sides of the political fence. Sometimes (well, often actually) I think you mistake arrogance for intelligence.

And sorry BH, Howard DID lie... he rode an election on the iron clad guarantee that there would never ever be a GST and then, yes, just a couple of years later he "changed his mind". If as you say, he was a true believer in tax reform, he would have believed in a GST all along, not just had a sudden epithany - in other words, he lied.

Just sharing info more than anything. My Great Grandfather was portrayed by a well known actor and was a major player in a well known television series. I don't share his working class politics.

He went to an election with the GST as his major policy and was duly elected. He was hardly going to go to an election with the GST after Hewson lost the unlosable election. I'm sure he never stopped believing the GST needed to come in. Keating also believe3d in the GST.

Surely even you wouldn't equate Howard's change of mind with Gillard doing precisely what she said she wouldn't weeks earlier during the election campaign ? One went to the people with a clear policy and one didn't.

Anyway, forget it. I have too much other stuff to do that actually makes me money.

The thing that get's me is, why is our government obligated to borrow money as opposed to printing money against capital works? We've always had the facility to do this and presumably things like the NBN could be completed without having to borrow money.

Presumably because this would lead to a devaluing also of our AAA credit rating. Punishment by international credit agencies for trying to manipulate the currency. This in turn would increase our cost of raising finance overseas to pay for our housing loans and bank cards.

Got a job thanks Robbie.

Not full of hate either.

I do count in an electoral sense also.

Wont be voting for a The brainy Rhodes Scholar who majored in Arts/Theology.

I think you might be living in 1957.

Your generation got a house/job/education all given to you pops.

I paid over the odds for all those things.

Conservative cranks like you are still riding up the back of a sheep.

Thank Goodness you will be in an old persons home soon farting in front of a photo of the Queen.

What do you mean you paid over the odds , you live in a hotel room you clown, labor have had there run and you lot need to deal with that.

To anyone claiming you've never taken a government handout/concession - if you have a super fund, there's a pretty effective tax break in there. 15% tax on earnings instead of your marginal tax rate. 0% if you're in pension phase.

Not all welfare is directed at your bank account and accompanied by a letter from Centrelink.

I'm not saying those tax concessions are bad or good, only that you get them because the government gives it to you. Otherwise you'd be paying your marginal tax rates on the earnings.

Also as much as I hate to say this because he acts like a bully, Ben is correct about Howard. Changing one's mind about an issue and then going to an election with that issue as a mandate is very very different to winning an election and changing one's mind after the fact.

Also Turnbull's lack of support within the party room is a bit of a myth. He lost the leadership by a single vote, and one of his supporters was not allowed to vote in absentia (I think she was sick at the time). Since then, unlike Rudd, he has not positioned himself to take the leadership. Any suggestions of that have come from the media. He has put his ego squarely away and gotten behind Abbott.

Also if you don't agree with his stance on the ETS (that's what he supported, not a carbon tax), then you can at least admire his balls for crossing the floor for when it was being voted on. He put his political career on the line for what he thought was the right thing, if it was or not isn't the point. I haven't seen that sort of courage from Rudd nor Abbott. If Rudd had had those kinds of balls he would have called a double dissolution, but he didn't. He shirked the 'greatest moral responsibility of our time' as he called it. If he really believed that, he would have pulled that trigger and stood up for what he thought was right.

Also as much as I hate to say this because he acts like a bully, Ben is correct about Howard.

You swine. I'm an arseh0le. I've never ever been a bully. And demand a retraction.

You swine. I'm an arseh0le. I've never ever been a bully. And demand a retraction.

Ah Benny. You're much more of a [censored] than an [censored]. I'm sure you prefer to think of yourself as an [censored] though.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/coalition-falls-30b-short-20130822-2sesr.html

Almost enough to make you want to vote Liberal just to find out where this magical $30billion is going to come from?

Almost being the key word....

Not important TD. We'll find out in good time. Everything's been fully costed by the Parliamentary budget office. It's all fully funded.

I reckon I could stand in for Abbott at the next debate. I know all his lines off by heart.

Ah Benny. You're much more of a [censored] than an [censored]. I'm sure you prefer to think of yourself as an [censored] though.

In real life I've never ever been called a [censored], Turdburger.

In real life I've never ever been called a [censored], Turdburger.

I find that almost impossible to believe.

I find that almost impossible to believe.

Say it to my face.

PM me and I'll organise.

Now this is modern day politics.

Not important TD. We'll find out in good time. Everything's been fully costed by the Parliamentary budget office. It's all fully funded.

I reckon I could stand in for Abbott at the next debate. I know all his lines off by heart.

Love your work P_Man. Throw in the odd sexist line here and there and you're as good as done!

Say it to my face.

PM me and I'll organise.

How old are we?

Say it to my face.

PM me and I'll organise.

LOL

Mate, you can't possibly be for real.

I bet my dad earns more than your dad.

LOL

Mate, you can't possibly be for real.

I bet my dad earns more than your dad.

Here I was expecting a PM.

You type "LOL" and you call me a "[censored]". Interesting.

And I'm deadly serious. PM me.

Here I was expecting a PM.

You type "LOL" and you call me a "[censored]". Interesting.

And I'm deadly serious. PM me.

I typed lol because that literally did make me laugh out loud it was so schoolyard. Clearly I've crossed a line with "[censored]".

Ben, grow up for heaven's sake. If you can't even cop being called a [censored] in this country on the chin then what hope is there for you? I was actually being jovial believe it or not, but are you really denying that your behaviour on this forum is [censored] behaviour? You can't not be aware of that. You insult pretty much everyone here. Anyone who holds a different view to you is deemed to be somehow beneath you.

And no offense, but I'd rather stick hot needles into my eyeballs than meet up with you.

I typed lol because that literally did make me laugh out loud it was so schoolyard. Clearly I've crossed a line with "[censored]".

Ben, grow up for heaven's sake. If you can't even cop being called a [censored] in this country on the chin then what hope is there for you? I was actually being jovial believe it or not, but are you really denying that your behaviour on this forum is [censored] behaviour? You can't not be aware of that. You insult pretty much everyone here. Anyone who holds a different view to you is deemed to be somehow beneath you.

And no offense, but I'd rather stick hot needles into my eyeballs than meet up with you.

Tosspot, leave your "joviality" to others.

And don't engage me again.

Tosspot, leave your "joviality" to others.

And don't engage me again.

Or what, you'll challenge to meet me at the jungle gym?

I'll do what I like thanks, it's a public forum. You need to work on those insecurities and lighten up mate. You sure spend alot of time being angry in a forum you frequent every day.

Or what, you'll challenge to meet me at the jungle gym?

I'll do what I like thanks, it's a public forum. You need to work on those insecurities and lighten up mate. You sure spend alot of time being angry in a forum you frequent every day.

I'm not angry whatsoever.

I just don't want to engage posters, and in this case you, who add nothing relevant to the site. And I mean nothing. Other than to spend their lives following me around and responding to my posts even when they're invariably not directed at you.

You're just one of the parasites on here that feed off others.

Oh well, it seems you won't desist. But I will.

I'm not angry whatsoever.

I just don't want to engage posters, and in this case you, who add nothing relevant to the site. And I mean nothing. Other than to spend their lives following me around and responding to my posts even when they're invariably not directed at you.

You're just one of the parasites on here that feed off others.

Oh well, it seems you won't desist. But I will.

I love how any interaction with you is interpreted as such. Spend my life following YOU around? haha..priceless. Some clown on an internet forum with a hot chick as his avatar, a sure sign he's never been close to a woman of that calibre or is ever likely to be. Yeah, that's precisely who I want to follow around.

This response illustrates perfectly how you see this site. What the hell do you add that's so more "relevant" than anyone else? We're discussing footy on here you epic dill. You seem to think of yourself as some Demonland demigod and the rest of the peasants should consider ourselves fortunate to bathe in your wisdom. For a while I thought it was all shtick but sadly it seems genuine.

You claim not to be an online bully, when that is precisely what you are. And not a very bright one. Your life outside of here must have some serious shortcomings for you to treat other posters the way you do.

Keep up the unintentional entertainment though.

Thread has been sufficiently sidetracked I think. Back to your messiah. Mr "does this guy ever shut up?". What a statesman. What a leader.

I would rank the 5 worst Prime Ministers in my lifetime as Billy McMahon, Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser, Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard and I would have Rudd and Gillard tied for first place followed by Whitlam, Mcmahon and Fraser.

I can understand that a lot don't like Abbott, I can't understand why but each to is own, but for the life of me I can't understand why anyone could like that trumped up twerp Rudd. He is a narcissist with a foul temper who has no hesitation on belittling women, he showed recently that he has a savage streak in him when he hurt a little boy who had the temerity to poke fun at him.

This idiot has wasted $billions on hair brained schemes and bubble thoughts, his latest bubble was the NT which was not even discussed in cabinet and Bill Shorten said he only knew of it after it was announced.

When he was PM the first time most, if not all of his colleagues, hated him and rid themselves of him at the first opportunity, then when Gillard proved to be even less likeable, they shafted her and brought him back. Half the Cabinet walked out and they were replaced by the ones that Gillard disposed of when she knifed Rudd; this is a Government in absolute turmoil, divided and directionless. They are all waiting for King Rudd to perform a miracle and it's just not going to happen.

The Labor Party needs at least two terms in opposition to get their [censored] together, they are, at the moment, totally without any direction and if those that supprt them can't see this then their blind hatred of Abbott is the reason.

It surprises me why this is so and if you ask most people their answer is mainly, I just don't like him and if you push further and ask why, you get the same answer. Most people don't have any reason why but the picture that's been painted of Abbott over the years is probably the reason, nothing of substance but just all the negativity about him.

Most people that have met him say he is a really good guy which reminds me of a comment that was made; if you meet Julia Gillard you walk away thinking she's not really a bad person, if you meet Kevin Rudd you walk away thinking he's an [censored].

Presumably because this would lead to a devaluing also of our AAA credit rating. Punishment by international credit agencies for trying to manipulate the currency. This in turn would increase our cost of raising finance overseas to pay for our housing loans and bank cards.

You're probably right, I must do some more reading into the subject.

My frustration probably just comes from government overspending and debt, which has become epidemic the world over, and has burdened countries and their people for most likely several generations to come.