I think you can lay some criticism that not enough players have improved under Neeld but I think it is disengenuous to damn him for little improvement in not enough players and then suggest that players that have improved cannot be attributed to him at all.

Sorry, but players should improve. They train full time at playing football.They should improve naturally as they mature, as well as with coaching. Please - any improvement under MN's coaching has been , at best, negligible. If he's claiming Blease as an improver, why isn't he playing in a team which is routinely being flogged

Sorry, but players should improve. They train full time at playing football.They should improve naturally as they mature, as well as with coaching. Please - any improvement under MN's coaching has been , at best, negligible. If he's claiming Blease as an improver, why isn't he playing in a team which is routinely being flogged

Therein lies the problem.

Have they ever had any feedback on their performance/training levels?

Why does Morton come and categorically state the difference between WCE and MFC training methods?

I'm going to go on record as saying that before Neeld arrived, our training was a bit of kick to kick, a barrel and a barbie.

Blease is there for a reason.

Sorry, but players should improve. They train full time at playing football.They should improve naturally as they mature, as well as with coaching. Please - any improvement under MN's coaching has been , at best, negligible. If he's claiming Blease as an improver, why isn't he playing in a team which is routinely being flogged

Should players improve ..really ? have you seen the statistics for those who are drafted who dont make it ? how many players are cut from the list each year, how many players are traded as deemed not good enough. Then did you conside rhow many players go backwards each year ? how many players have stalled development ?

But if you want to blame Neeld for players going backwards then you have to give him equal credit for those who go forwards. What i do believe that people have a good argument is that the ledger shows that way more players have either stalled or gone backwards than forwards

Trengrove god bless him is the best example of Neelds poor decision making.

On track to ruin a young mans career.

N Jones - only started playing good footy in 2011 under Neeld.

If you're going to try and put up a factual post it's good to start with actual facts...

If you're going to try and put up a factual post it's good to start with actual facts...

Disregarding 2006 (not fair to include debut year/would distort stats), Jones has averaged 15% more disposals, 11% more kicks, 19% more handballs, 20% more goals, 14% more behinds, 36% more tackles and 396% more browlow votes in 2012 to 2013 than in 2007 to 2011.

Jones has played well for a long time, but there is no doubt, particularly considering the brownlow votes, that Jones has improved under MN... and also that he hasn't always been at current form (which was my point, again emphasised in the end of my post), which is what people have been suggesting.

Enough facts for you stuie?

I could go on - 176% more frees for

Disregarding 2006 (not fair to include debut year/would distort stats), Jones has averaged 15% more disposals, 11% more kicks, 19% more handballs, 20% more goals, 14% more behinds, 36% more tackles and 396% more browlow votes in 2012 to 2013 than in 2007 to 2011.

Jones has played well for a long time, but there is no doubt, particularly considering the brownlow votes, that Jones has improved under MN... and also that he hasn't always been at current form (which was my point, again emphasised in the end of my post), which is what people have been suggesting.

Enough facts for you stuie?

I could go on - 176% more frees for

Missed the point PJ. Neeld didn't coach us in 2011. Re-read the posts.

Oh well lets see what happens against Collingwood now the entire Footy Department has been put on notice by the Board?

I not been a fan of MN as you all can tell from my posts, but here a chance for the team to show us all something (I so hate losing to Collingwood) and if they get with 10 goals I will be alittle happier!

But honestly it all about 2014 and beyond for me at this point.

Missed the point PJ. Neeld didn't coach us in 2011. Re-read the posts.

And you've clearly chosen to be pedantic about a clear mistake. Obviously meant 2012, typo.... particularly when I mention under Neeld - twice.

And you've clearly chosen to be pedantic about a clear mistake. Obviously meant 2012, typo.... particularly when I mention under Neeld - twice.

If it was a typo then fair enough. Plenty here get their facts totally wrong, so always gotta check!

I think you can lay some criticism that not enough players have improved under Neeld but I think it is disengenuous to damn him for little improvement in not enough players and then suggest that players that have improved cannot be attributed to him at all.

Edit - if people want to speculate that " Jones was always going to improve because he is such a hard trainer and committed to the task then by extension you can comment that Watts was never going to improve under any coach because he is lazy and not prepared to work hard enough"

I'd never blame Neeld for Watts. Watts doesn't have a competitive bone in his body.

if they get with 10 goals I will be alittle happier!.

To me this is the problem that most of us are accepting of. Getting within 10 goals we will be happy. What the.......

We should in no way be happy with this and accepting of this.

Our club is the laughing stock of the comp. the sooner Neeld is gone (and the restructure has happened) the better.

Not having a go TBF just pointing out how pathetically accepting of a 10 goal loss we are.

If it was a typo then fair enough. Plenty here get their facts totally wrong, so always gotta check!

Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I've got to check my posts more.

BTW, I owe you an apology for me raving on about Magner and your statement a while back. You're right.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I've got to check my posts more.

BTW, I owe you an apology for me raving on about Magner and your statement a while back. You're right.

I appreciated your follow up post though, love me some stats!

Which Magner statement? Can't remember our battle!

my

I'd never blame Neeld for Watts. Watts doesn't have a competitive bone in his body.

My argument is not a Watts argument. My argument is simply that if you damn Neeld for too little players improving then you have to credit him with anyone that has improved.

The fact still remains that it is damning how few players have gone forward and how many have gone backwards or stalled.

I appreciated your follow up post though, love me some stats!

Which Magner statement? Can't remember our battle!

Haha ditto.

You said that ideally you hoped that Magner wouldn't be on our list next year because you wanted our list's overall skills to be above his.

I tried to shoot you down saying you should want players to develop ect. but you're right. I thought about this when I was looking at Bail/MacKenzie...

Haha ditto.

You said that ideally you hoped that Magner wouldn't be on our list next year because you wanted our list's overall skills to be above his.

I tried to shoot you down saying you should want players to develop ect. but you're right. I thought about this when I was looking at Bail/MacKenzie...

Yeah it's nothing against those guys, I love their effort, and I'm actually a fan of Magner, but to improve our midfield we need players that will force them off our list.

I'd never blame Neeld for Watts. Watts doesn't have a competitive bone in his body.

A lot of pre-neeld players don't! Morton, watts, gysberts, cook, maric (although he left the year before) bate.. We've drafted a "nice" player consistently over the last 5-7 years. Jones and tapscott are exceptions, but a vast majority haven't had that "mongrel" that is really needed to take the next step. Dangerfield, hayes, Martin, Cotchin, pendlebury and hodge are all examples of players with that competitive spirit that sets them above good footballers of the watts, hill, Morton, tambling and kade Simpson mould. It's no surprise the competitive players on our list are the ones who (barring injury) are playing better footy- frawley, jonesx2, terlich, garland, trengove(defensively), Dawes etc. could also be why the "nice, less competitive) types aren't going as well as they should be by now.

my

My argument is not a Watts argument. My argument is simply that if you damn Neeld for too little players improving then you have to credit him with anyone that has improved.

The fact still remains that it is damning how few players have gone forward and how many have gone backwards or stalled.

No, one has to use reason in making an evaluation. Because one player goes backwards doesn't necessarily mean the coach should be blamed and because another also goes backwards doesn't mean he shouldn't be.

I acknowledge that it's not easy to do as a casual external observer.

All this discussion is doing is to confirm that we had a relatively young list full of potential before MN arrived.

MN failed to develop most on that list (apart from those he removed in one way or another) and he brought in players mostly of little value.

My summation is that, apart from drafting youngsters which anyone can do, Clark may be OK if he can remain fit, Dawes has a lot to prove, and the rest of the mature imports are not worth what we lost to get them.

None of the MN supporters have mentioned Dunn as an improver - he was struggling to get a game, but now seems to be performing a reasonable role in the team.

Jones, Frawley, Garland etc etc would all have improved themselves under any circumstances, as would many of the younger, no-name players - their own pride lifts them, even if MN can't get his act together as a coach. Never underestimate the individual's pride in their own performance - amidst heavy losses, it often appears that all players are bad, but IMO this is not the case. Maybe this is why other clubs circle MFC to pick individual players.

Oh well lets see what happens against Collingwood now the entire Footy Department has been put on notice by the Board?

I not been a fan of MN as you all can tell from my posts, but here a chance for the team to show us all something (I so hate losing to Collingwood) and if they get with 10 goals I will be alittle happier!

But honestly it all about 2014 and beyond for me at this point.

It is really interesting how many supporters are just happy to stay within 60 odd points. Dee supporters have well and truly raised the white flag. If Neeld was in charge of Carlton or Essendon under similar circumstances he would have been lynched by now. Our lot just slow hand clap and raise the white flag. Bloody hell!

Cam Schwab fired for being "divisive" amongst supporters but Mark Neeld still employed....

It is really interesting how many supporters are just happy to stay within 60 odd points. Dee supporters have well and truly raised the white flag. If Neeld was in charge of Carlton or Essendon under similar circumstances he would have been lynched by now. Our lot just slow hand clap and raise the white flag. Bloody hell!

Good post 'Soidee' - the apparent lack of action by the Board and the lack of a 'media savvy' comment says a lot!

I suspect he was speaking of the young developing players, whereas Jones was considered part of the senior group - albeit a youngish member.

From what I've seen of Neeld and his development of players I'd consider it folly to suggest he had any impact in Jones improvement. Jones is the hardest trainer at the club and I'd put any improvement down to his work ethic. I'd certainly not laud the nutjob for Jones' performances.

Ridiculous argument. I've said in other threads that I agree with you regarding Neeld's performance as a coach, but to stoop to such low-level arguments as to blame Neeld for anything negative and fail to attribute any positives at all undermines any argument you're trying to raise.

In the end, you can list the positives for Neeld on one or two hands. Jones is one of them, whether you like it or not. If Neeld is to blame for players not improving, then by extension he is to take credit for players who are improving.

Moreover, if Jones' improvement comes from work ethic, what does that say about the remainder of our list? If he can improve irrespective of the coach, why can't others?

TheBigFrog, on 05 Jun 2013 - 15:56, said:

if they get with 10 goals I will be alittle happier!.

To me this is the problem that most of us are accepting of. Getting within 10 goals we will be happy. What the.......

We should in no way be happy with this and accepting of this.

Our club is the laughing stock of the comp. the sooner Neeld is gone (and the restructure has happened) the better.

Not having a go TBF just pointing out how pathetically accepting of a 10 goal loss we are.