POLL: Watts v Naitanui ... Did we get it right or wrong?

[Hannibal 5,814]

I want the coach to play him where he is going to be of value to the team, which is what he is doing.

He's got no choice, but to play him back. If he can't get a kick there he won't get a kick anywhere. And we'll be running out of spots on the ground.

[drdrake 3,157]

I'll be happy if his disposal efficiency on the last line of defence remains as high as it is. I'd rather have the ball in Watt's hands in that area than Grimes'.

I love how you will give NN and Hurley 5 years to establish themselves as stars. Here's a great idea, how about we give Jack the same time, and if he isn't in their class, tehn I will say we made a mistake.

They will be very good AFL footballers next year, to me a star is someone that performs at an extremely high level over a number of seasons not one our two. Watts will be B grade at tops, I hope I'm wrong to be A grade/elite you need to be a game breaker, I just don't see any signs of that in Jack. I'd rather Jack Watts be kicking the football to Mitch Clark inside our forward 50m arc not getting clearing kicks deep inside our defensive 50m arc. We need Jack Watts to have the footy in his hands forward of the centre suppling our forwards, my main concern with Jack last year he attacked his leads presented gave a good option, this year his leading was half hearted, to me taking him to Half Back hasn't taught him about work rate, he never spent time on the hard working lead up forwards.

[demonsflag555657 3]

What a stupid statement. I was merely interpreting a comment he made on a hypothetical that never materialized.

You need to look up a definition of the word 'liar'.

Strange rover Of course he would say that. It gives Melbourne an 'out'.

So you are saying he lied to me.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

I note that after 9 pages the pro NikNat people still haven't been able to come up with any comparative statistics that support their stance. The simple truth is that Watts, despite playing in a truly awful side, is matching up very well statistically. The difference is that he is not a gigantic deadlocked black man and as such is not as eye-catching.

Now, to those who sing his praises, I am perfectly happy to say that NicNat has the potential to be an amazing player. His speed, strength and athleticism are astounding, which is why he continues to make headlines despite his skill level. But therein lies the problem. His lack of games sense means that he rarely gets into space or spreads from a contest, so too many of his disposals are contested. His skills are abysmal. He still struggles to take a mark in his hands, he still struggles to hit a target by hand or foot. Much of this is mitigated by the quality of the personnel surrounding him, so he is still looking pretty good, but if he is every going to deserve the hype, he needs to drastically improve in both his ball-handling and game sense.

In comparison, we have Watts. His skills are light years beyond NikNat's. His disposal efficiency is well above, despite paying in a team that regularly makes even the simplest pass into a clanger through sheer ineptitude. Despite the oft-repeated claims of some media personalities, he does have an opponent when playing on the HBF (or do people think that his man has dropped back to be the spare defender at the other end? Against Melbourne!). His style is far more subdued and as such less eye-catching, but his effectiveness can be measured by the very claim his detractors continue to make. They never notice his opponent, and as such assume there isn't one. Those of us who pay attention know that his opponents are rarely sighted because they can't get the ball.

Obviously Watts continues to have issues he needs to work on. His core strength would be the primary issue for me. While he can and will beat his man to the ball on most occasions, if he is forced to wrestle or fight on the ground, he often finds himself outmatched. Greater core strength would help in this area. He also needs more confidence in the air. Despite his athletic ability, he rarely jumps for the ball, preferring to use body positioning, which is often beaten again by his lack of core strength with which to hold his ground. If he is to continue playing as a rebounding defender then this is the primary area he needs to improve. If they want to move him forward again at any time, the biggest issue will be teaching the midfield how to hit a leading player so that he isn't forced to wrestle against player like Rutten.

All this goes to show that they are two very different players, playing in totally different positions in teams which are poles apart in terms of quality. As such, there is little point in trying to compare them. Looking at the statistics for both players, both for their respective careers and for this year, there is really little difference in their output. They have both had times where they have impacted the result of games, and far more frequently, they have both failed to do so. In all honesty, the only difference I see between them at this point in their respective careers is that one is far more marketable.

[Guest Rassilon]

He's got no choice, but to play him back. If he can't get a kick there he won't get a kick anywhere. And we'll be running out of spots on the ground.

Rubbish. Lets take Neitz as an example - Where did he play his junior football? Yet in his early years of AFL where did he play CHB - where he actually won an All Australian selection(???) - remind me who the greatest CHF of the last 30 years Wayne Carey said where his toughest 2 opponents? Remind me where did Neitz end his career? (And won a Coleman Medal & All Australian selection again in that position) Its called development clearly a principle you struggle with. Careers are judged over the whole career not just the first part of a players development.

Let take young Tom MacDonald in our current side. I remember going to Ballarat on many occasion - freezzzzzing my balls off. Kid was an undersized Ruckman Forward. You could have knocked me over with a feather when we picked him. Yet he has been developed into a backman. Arguable today he is quickly turning into our best backman.

Nic Nat is an awesome player. However, you cant underestimate the importance of Dean Cox in his development. Would he be as good with us? Would he have returned back home - everything pointed to he would have been a huge risk. Who knows who cares.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Rassilon

[Biffen 12,940]

Watts just needs a stupid haircut (or lack of) to clean the floor with this guy.

Who voted for the athletic black man with the dreadlocks?

[Range Rover 1,935]

Rubbish. Lets take Neitz as an example - Where did he play his junior football? Yet in his early years of AFL where did he play CHB - where he actually won an All Australian selection(???) - remind me who the greatest CHF of the last 30 years Wayne Carey said where his toughest 2 opponents? Remind me where did Neitz end his career? (And won a Coleman Medal & All Australian selection again in that position) Its called development clearly a principle you struggle with. Careers are judged over the whole career not just the first part of a players development.

Neitz and Carey wholeheartedly committed their bodies to contests in the first minute of their first games and never stopped doing so.

Watts has yet to show any such inclination. So, there's your key difference right there. Petty important one I would've thought.

Watts looks like he sh1ts himself whenever an opposition player is within 5 metres of him.

[drdrake 3,157]

Rubbish. Lets take Neitz as an example - Where did he play his junior football? Yet in his early years of AFL where did he play CHB - where he actually won an All Australian selection(???) - remind me who the greatest CHF of the last 30 years Wayne Carey said where his toughest 2 opponents? Remind me where did Neitz end his career? (And won a Coleman Medal & All Australian selection again in that position) Its called development clearly a principle you struggle with. Careers are judged over the whole career not just the first part of a players development.

Let take young Tom MacDonald in our current side. I remember going to Ballarat on many occasion - freezzzzzing my balls off. Kid was an undersized Ruckman Forward. You could have knocked me over with a feather when we picked him. Yet he has been developed into a backman. Arguable today he is quickly turning into our best backman.

Nic Nat is an awesome player. However, you cant underestimate the importance of Dean Cox in his development. Would he be as good with us? Would he have returned back home - everything pointed to he would have been a huge risk. Who knows who cares.

Neitz still played the key post against some of the best forwards in the game, Jack Watts is being pushed of the ball by a 2 foot 2 19yo. If Jack went back to play on key forwards and it was for his education great, to me we put him back there to get a kick.

[satyricon 267]

I note that after 9 pages the pro NikNat people still haven't been able to come up with any comparative statistics that support their stance. The simple truth is that Watts, despite playing in a truly awful side, is matching up very well statistically. The difference is that he is not a gigantic deadlocked black man and as such is not as eye-catching.

Now, to those who sing his praises, I am perfectly happy to say that NicNat has the potential to be an amazing player. His speed, strength and athleticism are astounding, which is why he continues to make headlines despite his skill level. But therein lies the problem. His lack of games sense means that he rarely gets into space or spreads from a contest, so too many of his disposals are contested. His skills are abysmal. He still struggles to take a mark in his hands, he still struggles to hit a target by hand or foot. Much of this is mitigated by the quality of the personnel surrounding him, so he is still looking pretty good, but if he is every going to deserve the hype, he needs to drastically improve in both his ball-handling and game sense.

In comparison, we have Watts. His skills are light years beyond NikNat's. His disposal efficiency is well above, despite paying in a team that regularly makes even the simplest pass into a clanger through sheer ineptitude. Despite the oft-repeated claims of some media personalities, he does have an opponent when playing on the HBF (or do people think that his man has dropped back to be the spare defender at the other end? Against Melbourne!). His style is far more subdued and as such less eye-catching, but his effectiveness can be measured by the very claim his detractors continue to make. They never notice his opponent, and as such assume there isn't one. Those of us who pay attention know that his opponents are rarely sighted because they can't get the ball.

Obviously Watts continues to have issues he needs to work on. His core strength would be the primary issue for me. While he can and will beat his man to the ball on most occasions, if he is forced to wrestle or fight on the ground, he often finds himself outmatched. Greater core strength would help in this area. He also needs more confidence in the air. Despite his athletic ability, he rarely jumps for the ball, preferring to use body positioning, which is often beaten again by his lack of core strength with which to hold his ground. If he is to continue playing as a rebounding defender then this is the primary area he needs to improve. If they want to move him forward again at any time, the biggest issue will be teaching the midfield how to hit a leading player so that he isn't forced to wrestle against player like Rutten.

All this goes to show that they are two very different players, playing in totally different positions in teams which are poles apart in terms of quality. As such, there is little point in trying to compare them. Looking at the statistics for both players, both for their respective careers and for this year, there is really little difference in their output. They have both had times where they have impacted the result of games, and far more frequently, they have both failed to do so. In all honesty, the only difference I see between them at this point in their respective careers is that one is far more marketable.

RalphIusM, beautifully thought out and written, don't expect too many quotes or too many posts in reply, it all makes too much sense........all together in unsion with Bruce//......"NNNNNAAAAATTTTTTTAAAAANNNNNNNNNEWWWWWWEEEEEEEE...YOU BEAUTY!!!!!

Your last sentence says it all

[Guest Rassilon]

Neitz and Carey wholeheartedly committed their bodies to contests in the first minute of their first games and never stopped doing so.

Watts has yet to show any such inclination. So, there's your key difference right there. Petty important one I would've thought.

Watts looks like he sh1ts himself whenever an opposition player is within 5 metres of him.

You clearly missed the point I was discussing the "He's got no choice, but to play him back. If he can't get a kick there he won't get a kick anywhere. And we'll be running out of spots on the ground." Comment by BEN-Hur

Re your comments confidence is a vital element in AFL football, many times that can be instilled by a COX type figure. Again you cant underestimate the value of Cox in Nic Nat development.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Neitz still played the key post against some of the best forwards in the game, Jack Watts is being pushed of the ball by a 2 foot 2 19yo. If Jack went back to play on key forwards and it was for his education great, to me we put him back there to get a kick.

C'mon Dr, I don't understand why you would put this in as part of your argument. I know it's tounge in cheek, but it iritates me that you would say something like that to try and get your point across. For mine, it gives your argument no credit whatsoever.

Then you follow it up with the old beauty of "I know what the coach is doing". You say that he is being played back there more for the benefit of racking up possessions than his own development. How many "experts" that have actually had a long career at the top level came out and said that the best thing for Watts' development would be to play back to learn how the opposition forwards play?

Do you really think Neeld is playing him back to get cheap kicks? If so, sack the coach immediately.

[Range Rover 1,935]

You clearly missed the point I was discussing the "He's got no choice, but to play him back. If he can't get a kick there he won't get a kick anywhere. And we'll be running out of spots on the ground." Comment by BEN-Hur

Re your comments confidence is a vital element in AFL football, many times that can be instilled by a COX type figure. Again you cant underestimate the value of Cox in Nic Nat development.

I think you're missing the point, which is ...

NicNat is streets ahead of Watts.

[Biffen 12,940]

Neitz and Carey wholeheartedly committed their bodies to contests in the first minute of their first games and never stopped doing so.

Watts has yet to show any such inclination. So, there's your key difference right there. Petty important one I would've thought.

Watts looks like he sh1ts himself whenever an opposition player is within 5 metres of him.

Keeping your feet and shirking are different things RR. I'm glad he doesn't take a tumble when the ball comes near-thats shirking it.

It's one of the reasons Tom Mac is so good.

[Guest Rassilon]

I think you're missing the point, which is ...

NicNat is streets ahead of Watts.

I think you are missing the big picture. Would Nic Nat be as good without Dean Cox to aid his development? Would Nic Nat been an easy target to lure home? Are you jumping the gun? - we are still in the early stages of both players careers.

Now just for your info. You didnt get it for me. If we have made a mistake with Jacks development. Possibly we harped on too much about mistakes & a few of the boys re-acted differently, they started to play like "scared rabbits". So as part of Jacks development we have moved him back to build his confidence, take the game on with a bit more freedom. But you all live and learn - AFL coaches included.

[Hannibal 5,814]

RalphIusM, beautifully thought out and written, don't expect too many quotes or too many posts in reply, it all makes too much sense........all together in unsion with Bruce//......"NNNNNAAAAATTTTTTTAAAAANNNNNNNNNEWWWWWWEEEEEEEE...YOU BEAUTY!!!!!

Your last sentence says it all

There are two reasons I didn't respond to his post. Firstly, I've said about as much as I can about Watts in the "Jack Watts" thread, and secondly I can't really be bothered defending Naitanui.

Although I have to say that his analysis of Naitanui's impact and importance to West Coast's fortunes is disastrously poor and one of a shallow thinker.

[stuie 7,374]

I think you're missing the point, which is ...

NicNat is streets ahead of Watts.

This is the extent of your argument RR. Your opinion. You've not backed it up other to say than "Oh but I say he's better", and then give a few stats which were balanced out by opposing Watts stats.

Your willingness to fight SO hard against one of our better players this year is the weakest kind of "supporting".

[Range Rover 1,935]

This is the extent of your argument RR. Your opinion. You've not backed it up other to say than "Oh but I say he's better", and then give a few stats which were balanced out by opposing Watts stats.

Your willingness to fight SO hard against one of our better players this year is the weakest kind of "supporting".

Okay "Cheersquad Boy"

Great nickname for you by the way (credit - Deestroy All)

[rpfc 28,247]

Okay "Cheersquad Boy"

Great nickname for you by the way (credit - Deestroy All)

I wouldn't bait DA.

You might earn one yourself.

He's not a fan of this thread...

[Range Rover 1,935]

I wouldn't bait DA.

You might earn one yourself.

He's not a fan of this thread...

He's not a fan of Watts, either.

[stuie 7,374]

Okay "Cheersquad Boy"

Great nickname for you by the way (credit - Deestroy All)

Your credibility stocks just keep going up don't they RR....

[rpfc 28,247]

He's not a fan of Watts, either.

He's a fan of Melbourne though...

Why are you doing this?

Let's take your conclusion to it logical end (or cliff); NikNat is better and will always be better than Watts.

The end.

It is just a hypothetical now, relevant only to the alternate reality that had the MFC take Natinui in that draft.

In this reality it is an irrelevance. A decision made by people who are no longer Demons.

This poll is just a worthless exercise in masochism.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Why are you doing this?

Because I don't want us to throw more high-daft pick gold away.

The stuff-ups must be acknowledged ... but as you can see, there's still a hell of a lot of denial among the faithful.

Picks 3 and 4 this year must be used on best available. No exceptions.

[stuie 7,374]

Because I don't want us to throw more high-daft pick gold away.

The stuff-ups must be acknowledged ... but as you can see, there's still a hell of a lot of denial among the faithful.

Picks 3 and 4 this year must be used on best available. No exceptions.

Quoting truths amongst your opinions does not make your opinions truths.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Quoting truths amongst your opinions does not make your opinions truths.

Confucius or Cheersquad Boy ... which is it?

[stuie 7,374]

Confucius or Cheersquad Boy ... which is it?

You can use whichever you like, yours is a combo of both, "Confused Boy".