So if a player is battling through a form slump or carrying an imjury that nobody knows about

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:24, billy2803 said:

Bloody tough to answer from an outsiders point of view Oucher, especially considering I haven't been to a game this year.

In my view, and forgive me as I could be well off the mark, while we still have Sylvia, Moloney and Rivers running around, it's going to be bloody hard for Trengove and Grimes to turn this ship around. I pick those players because I would expect that any new player would be drawn to them initially, due to the fact that they are probably more recognised as our leading players (not to get confused with our leaders). I would imagine that those 3 personalities would be quite difficult for JT/JG to change, mainly because of pride, and further to that, the respect that our joint captains have earned.

The fact that Jones is a leader has probably ensured that Moloney and Sylvia espe especially, have adapted to some degree, as I do believe they are fairly good friends.

To be honest, I wouldn't expect to see significant changes to our culture, changes that are visible to the general public (which is what 99% of us are on here), for at least 3 years with this current Leadership Group. Jones and Clark took the right steps this year by displaying a minimum standard onfield. I don't believe Trengove and Grimes have done that, which concerns me, but I'm willing to wipe out this year (another blood year!!!!), but will will expect different next year.

I look at Carlton, the inclusion of Judd, and what their general culture is like. Again, I am only doing this from vision on TV. Judd obviously came from Wet Coke, where that was a bizarre culture to say the least, but somehow managed to snag them a flag. Carlton, with top picks coming through, needed a senior player, which turend out to be one of the best of all time, to lead that team. He's obviously a gun, Judd, but has he been able to create a culture like Geelong and Sydney? He tried, but I don't think that's his strong point. He has shown leadership, but how it looks (again, just my view) is that for Judd, he can turn up and he's one of the greatest, the harder he tries, generally the more damaging he is. Murphy is on board, knows that he has to work bloody hard to get to Judd's "average" level. It's the blokes like Robinson, Betts, Scotland, Gibbs, Simpson, when they are up and about, they are one of the best in the league, but it's when they are not, that's when you can see their culture issues.

This is my view, no facts, figures or otherwise.

So if a player is going through a form slump, or carrying an injury that nobody knows about and isn't quite playing to the best of their ability...that is the culture.......I couldn't have shot down the culture rubbish better if I had tried for the rest of day...thank you

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:33, Oucher said:

Nah thats a pretty fair assessment,

I agree it's hard to assess Trengove and Grimes, especially in this first year. Both players are around the 50 game mark, whilst neither has set the world on fire on the field, they haven't been terrible either. Just looking at basic stats will tell you that they are both high up on possessions etc. Not great, but not as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be either.

Off the field is the bit that none of us would have a clue about. But given what has been thrown at our club all year, they have done a decent job... and it will take several years before we see results.

Don't get too sucked in with possession counts though, they might be in our top 3-5, but where do they rate in the entire league?

When our LG has names like Grimes, Trengove, Jones, Clark, Watts (he will be told and taught what it takes to fulfil his potential), McKenzie (not the best player but a bloody hard worker), that's when I will be happy about how our culture will be, and would expect the likes of Blease, Howe, etc to really stamp us as a contender. It's then when Viney could quite easily step in to that LG without huge amounts of games under his belt, because he will be Mr Cultre ©.

I guess that means I will be interested to see what 2015 looks like, but keeping an eye out for steady improvement in 2013.

From what I have heard, Judd came in and demanded more from everyone at the place. They would have been far better off if they got rid of Fev when Judd came as he was an insolent sideshow for their talented and impressionable youth.

But we don't have a Judd.

What we have is some very impressive young individuals and a young squad. They are our only option with regard to decent leadership for this club and I am quite confident that they will influence the group over time.

What happens on field is a manifestation of standards off of the field. The culture we need to foster is one of discipline and work ethic and it helps when your best players are your best leaders, and they are the hardest workers.

In our case they are beginning to be.

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:42, satyricon said:

So if a player is battling through a form slump or carrying an imjury that nobody knows about

So if a player is going through a form slump, or carrying an injury that nobody knows about and isn't quite playing to the best of their ability...that is the culture.......I couldn't have shot down the culture rubbish better if I had tried for the rest of day...thank you

WTF are you talking about? Who is carrying an injury? Trengove? F M D.

Nathan Jones and Mitch Clark are the culture setters, we need our captains to get on board, but as I said, they may be doing a lot behind the scenes that you and I don't know about.

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:42, satyricon said:

So if a player is going through a form slump, or carrying an injury that nobody knows about and isn't quite playing to the best of their ability...that is the culture.......I couldn't have shot down the culture rubbish better if I had tried for the rest of day...thank you

I think you mis-understood.

On-field results reflect culture, it isn't where it is built.

Again I apologise for being unable to respond in a definitive fashion to this very complex matter.

Jolly says he was young and maybe missed the culture of Melb FC

this says as much about the club as it does about Jolly.

It may also say something about the current young players although from the various comments made I think people are saying the Jacks may be an inspired but long term choice.

I still disagree with BH that the playing leadership group defines the culture, any more than the coach defines the culture rather they are all a part of the club and adopt confirm reflect or adapt a culture that goes beyond the play.

I am not disagreeing with the many fine comments made and havent got the silver bullet answer but do think as stated previously that the more we discuss it the more clear it will become and the more likely we will all embrace it

  On 15/08/2012 at 05:05, dpositive said:

Again I apologise for being unable to respond in a definitive fashion to this very complex matter.

Jolly says he was young and maybe missed the culture of Melb FC

this says as much about the club as it does about Jolly.

It may also say something about the current young players although from the various comments made I think people are saying the Jacks may be an inspired but long term choice.

I still disagree with BH that the playing leadership group defines the culture, any more than the coach defines the culture rather they are all a part of the club and adopt confirm reflect or adapt a culture that goes beyond the play.

I am not disagreeing with the many fine comments made and havent got the silver bullet answer but do think as stated previously that the more we discuss it the more clear it will become and the more likely we will all embrace it

It's actually something I thought about for a while too (Jolly's reference to missing culture at the MFC)

It's a damning statement, as TBH it suggests that MFC at the time had a very poor culture in terms of looking after young players, or indeed it's so unforgettable / non existant that he truthfully can't comment.

There are several aspects of the MFC that are rock bottom, ... lets look at next year for some improvement, and the years afterwards, it's only then we can see if the changes made in 2012 were the catalyst.

  On 15/08/2012 at 05:05, dpositive said:

I still disagree with BH that the playing leadership group defines the culture, any more than the coach defines the culture rather they are all a part of the club and adopt confirm reflect or adapt a culture that goes beyond the play.

So even when a current two time premiership player states that the leaders of a playing group defines club culture and that Maxfield "created the Blood's culture", which still exists today, you still don't get it ?

No need to respond.

I've been fortunate enough to spend significant amounts of time around the Swans, both observing them in action and talking with their players from the rookies to the captains. That club's culture is among the best in the league and I can assure you it is driven almost solely by the club's leaders.

The idea that a club's leadership group is NOT is control of the club's culture is laughable.

  On 15/08/2012 at 05:38, Ben-Hur said:

So even when a current two time premiership player states that the leaders of a playing group defines club culture and that Maxfield "created the Blood's culture", which still exists today, you still don't get it ?

No need to respond.

Sorry BH

I appreciate that it is a difficult issue and have tried to get it but

"Maxfield created the bloods culture" reinforces my point. The bloods was the epitomy of south melb culture which was never translated to sydney apparently until maxfield adopted it represented it and other players confirmed it.

I doubt the current collingwood players would create a culture that is different from Eddieand the rest of Cwood managment coaches and supporters( Gosh even reporters and the general public have an idea of the collingwood culture.

Maybe a single player can create a culture I doubt it thats all. Perhaps can create a culture for themselves as a leadership group can create a playing culture and yes that is important

I was confusing that with the previous discussion about MFC culture. certainly the playing group, the leadership group of which will play a significant role in the expression of the culture as will the coach and you.

  On 15/08/2012 at 05:58, MikeyJ said:

I've been fortunate enough to spend significant amounts of time around the Swans, both observing them in action and talking with their players from the rookies to the captains. That club's culture is among the best in the league and I can assure you it is driven almost solely by the club's leaders.

The idea that a club's leadership group is NOT is control of the club's culture is laughable.

Further to above and response te to BH

You may be right that the leadership group is in control of Sydneys culture and if that is the desirable model we merely have to seek the advice of the Melbourne leadership group and we can establiish the culture of the club. Sorry I dont think its that easy. Even they might need some assistance in defining it

Think I might just leave it at that as I am unsure where I can go but have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy your thoughts .

  On 15/08/2012 at 07:11, dpositive said:

Further to above and response te to BH

You may be right that the leadership group is in control of Sydneys culture and if that is the desirable model we merely have to seek the advice of the Melbourne leadership group and we can establiish the culture of the club. Sorry I dont think its that easy. Even they might need some assistance in defining it

Of course it isn't easy.

We are not saying that we can simply get our senior players to change our culture.

We are saying that the senior players or the Leadership Group (which don't have to be the same thing but certainly affect one another) dictate the culture of a club and the standards that are set.

Ours have been sub-par for years and we now have moved to the U/24 brigade to steer us. Hopefully in the right direction.

Whilst he provided a different sort of leadership, when Big Carl Captain Coached on his second spell with the Dees, we were far superior with him on the ground - and he wasnt getting the ball all that much. It wasnt only about him biffing people- he had a physical presence that made people walk taller. He led by example which is what the Judds of the world do but take a different example. Talk to the Collingwood people and the first person they all mention in terms of leadership is Maxwell. I know,I know - he is the Captain but there are maybe a dozen before him on the Pies list in terms of talent and their football influence with ball in hand. Maxwell provides superb leadership and his effect on games is not measured by kicks,marks and handballs.

Who was the last player we had who provided real leadership ?

  On 15/08/2012 at 07:11, dpositive said:

Further to above and response te to BH

You may be right that the leadership group is in control of Sydneys culture and if that is the desirable model we merely have to seek the advice of the Melbourne leadership group and we can establiish the culture of the club. Sorry I dont think its that easy. Even they might need some assistance in defining it

Clearly it's not easy, otherwise every club would have a great culture. You still need to draft/recruit talented players, as well as getting the right people into your club. And not every player will make it at Sydney due to their demands/expectations, but as long as they have a nucleus of strong leaders, plus talented footballers they'll continue to set parameters that ensure they're competitive. Having a great culture doesn't ensure premierships, but it ensures that you're continually close to maximising potential; and you can't ask for much more than that.

Leigh Matthews considers the two most important ingredients in a footballer to be their talent and their leadership. For example, Clint Bartram and Brad Miller have great leadership qualities, but lack talent. Allen Jakovich had rare talent and no leadership. Dan Hannebery, who I wanted at Melbourne prior to his draft, has good talent, but even better leadership.

We need to bring talented individuals into this club that can complement the leadership group we're developing. It will take time, but we can develop sustained competitiveness with the right footballers. If you can also recruit/develop a couple of stars you'll have greater prospects.

  On 15/08/2012 at 01:35, jnrmac said:

No worries.

Re Jolly - aside from is pot shot at tanking I fully understand why he left and is probably peed off. Daniher was giving him 6-8mins a game!! It was appalling. His love for Jeff White was crazy in terms of development for other players.

To his credit he has 2 flags and has been at two strong clubs so I would say he pretty well qualified to talk about it.

I get why people want to persist with Col but I am over him and have a strong view that he should be weeded out after 8 (!) years. Otherwise the culture will never have a chance to change. Its a bit like a CEo coming in and clearing out management of a company. Good people sometimes go but if change is to happen often a clean sweep is needed first. Thats why I like the grimes/trengove captaincy.

^ ^ ^ ^

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:46, billy2803 said:

Nathan Jones and Mitch Clark are the culture setters.

No they're not. They're good players. Being a good player might help to build credibility, but it doesn't create a leader in and of itself.

I'm probably the worst player on my volleyball team, but when the other team gets a run on, and I bring the group together and talk up the effort we're going to put in on the next point in order to stop the rot, I get a positive reaction. I'm a good leader (in my little, D grade shitty volleyball team. I'm not talking myself up here!). It seems to me that the crowd (that's us), by and large gets sucked into following the "leaders" of a club, but we only get to interact with them in one way... watching them play. Obviously the guys that play the best will stand out to us in the outer. But the game is three hours in a week. There's a hell of a lot more interaction off the field than on it. Leadership is built on a whole lot more than playing talent, that's for sure.

(That said, it would be nice if Trenners could slot a regulation 30m-out-directly-in-front goal now and then. Some playing credibility is required!)

  On 15/08/2012 at 15:45, autocol said:

No they're not. They're good players. Being a good player might help to build credibility, but it doesn't create a leader in and of itself.

I'm probably the worst player on my volleyball team, but when the other team gets a run on, and I bring the group together and talk up the effort we're going to put in on the next point in order to stop the rot, I get a positive reaction. I'm a good leader (in my little, D grade shitty volleyball team. I'm not talking myself up here!). It seems to me that the crowd (that's us), by and large gets sucked into following the "leaders" of a club, but we only get to interact with them in one way... watching them play. Obviously the guys that play the best will stand out to us in the outer. But the game is three hours in a week. There's a hell of a lot more interaction off the field than on it. Leadership is built on a whole lot more than playing talent, that's for sure.

(That said, it would be nice if Trenners could slot a regulation 30m-out-directly-in-front goal now and then. Some playing credibility is required!)

I was semi-interested until about here. Is volleyball classed as a sport?

  On 15/08/2012 at 04:43, rpfc said:

From what I have heard, Judd came in and demanded more from everyone at the place. They would have been far better off if they got rid of Fev when Judd came as he was an insolent sideshow for their talented and impressionable youth.

But we don't have a Judd.

What we have is some very impressive young individuals and a young squad. They are our only option with regard to decent leadership for this club and I am quite confident that they will influence the group over time.

What happens on field is a manifestation of standards off of the field. The culture we need to foster is one of discipline and work ethic and it helps when your best players are your best leaders, and they are the hardest workers.

In our case they are beginning to be.

See, I have a completely different view of Judd. I don't think he is a leaders bootlace. Yes he leads with on field performance but Tom Harley would not have stood by while Fev was going apeshit at the Brownlow. Nick maxwell would not have chained himself to an 18yo Levi Casaboult who was so shiitefaced that his Dad had to be called to be picked up.

Brett Kirk would not have tolerated a drug fuelled culture that Judd oversaw at West Coke.

Judd continually says 'I don't want to be a role model' or in my words 'Just pay me a fortune and p*** off out of my life'. He is anything but a leader. I think that those who point to a single gun player like that saying everyone will follow is missing the point entirely.

Carlton does not play like a true team under Judd IMO. So its more than having a great player. Its about having a leadership group that demands excellence and commitment.

  On 15/08/2012 at 23:26, jnrmac said:

See, I have a completely different view of Judd. I don't think he is a leaders bootlace. Yes he leads with on field performance but Tom Harley would not have stood by while Fev was going apeshit at the Brownlow. Nick maxwell would not have chained himself to an 18yo Levi Casaboult who was so shiitefaced that his Dad had to be called to be picked up.

Brett Kirk would not have tolerated a drug fuelled culture that Judd oversaw at West Coke.

Judd continually says 'I don't want to be a role model' or in my words 'Just pay me a fortune and p*** off out of my life'. He is anything but a leader. I think that those who point to a single gun player like that saying everyone will follow is missing the point entirely.

Carlton does not play like a true team under Judd IMO. So its more than having a great player. Its about having a leadership group that demands excellence and commitment.

I think you're pretty accurate Jnr, which is why I brought up Carlton. I think they made the mistake that Judd would create this culture for their young guns. As it's one of his not-many weaknesses, I think we are seeing Carlton not fulfil their potential this year because of it. They have a lot of very good players, but too many of them think they are a lot better than what they are.

It certainly is an interesting topic, one of which we can't fully know everything about because of the fact that we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

Judd is a leader. He isn't one outside of a footy club that is for sure, but inside those rooms at Carlton he controls the place.

They beat to his drum and he likes winning sh!t.

  On 15/08/2012 at 23:26, jnrmac said:

See, I have a completely different view of Judd. I don't think he is a leaders bootlace. Yes he leads with on field performance but Tom Harley would not have stood by while Fev was going apeshit at the Brownlow. Nick maxwell would not have chained himself to an 18yo Levi Casaboult who was so shiitefaced that his Dad had to be called to be picked up.

Brett Kirk would not have tolerated a drug fuelled culture that Judd oversaw at West Coke.

Judd continually says 'I don't want to be a role model' or in my words 'Just pay me a fortune and p*** off out of my life'. He is anything but a leader. I think that those who point to a single gun player like that saying everyone will follow is missing the point entirely.

Carlton does not play like a true team under Judd IMO. So its more than having a great player. Its about having a leadership group that demands excellence and commitment.

Totally Jnr.

The Swans say Hello. And it's not Goodes who's the leader of the pack.

  On 15/08/2012 at 23:47, rpfc said:

Judd is a leader. He isn't one outside of a footy club that is for sure, but inside those rooms at Carlton he controls the place.

They beat to his drum and he likes winning sh!t.

I don't agree.

I think he sets a fantastic example, but there's more than that to leadership.

He doesn't get in his teammates faces and demand performance in the same way I'd expect a truly great leader to.

He certainly hasn't forged a great culture at Carlton, and while that is not easy, it's what I'd expect of a great leader.

  On 16/08/2012 at 09:05, José Mourinho said:

I don't agree.

I think he sets a fantastic example, but there's more than that to leadership.

He doesn't get in his teammates faces and demand performance in the same way I'd expect a truly great leader to.

He certainly hasn't forged a great culture at Carlton, and while that is not easy, it's what I'd expect of a great leader.

One man has turned that pathetic place into a finals contender, it's a fair effort.

  On 16/08/2012 at 11:38, rpfc said:

One man has turned that pathetic place into a finals contender, it's a fair effort.

But that's not to do with leadership or changing the culture - that's reflective of his influence on the result, and the improvement of his teammates as they develop.