Cloke and Collingwood - to part or not to part?

[beelzebub 23,376]

This seems to suggest that somehow magically overnight a so -so midfiuled suddenly comes to life because of another target . To me this doesnt pan out logically. The players that are the midfiled either can play or they cant, they can kick to a lead or they cant, they can think , or they cant. It is THEY who are doing it, not the 'beacon . that some seem tosuggest is another Power forward.

we have forwards. They can for the most take marks if delivery is adequate-to-good. Mitch Clark , Howe ( when holds them ..lol) Jurrah ( when playing ) , Green , Sylvia and even Trengove when up the ground can all mark a ball. What you cant mark or get is something not delivered.

Just aboutevery commentator and watcher of this game ( and our team ) all but agree that delivery and strikes into the forward 50 is what is lettiing our side down, not the ability to do anything with them ( supply )as we have had to become one of the most efficient forward groups in the competition for LACK of chances.

Cloke is a cart.....we have carts.. We lack horses

[Macca 16,971]

My point 'belzebub59' was that a midfield can be improved by good key position players , not will be improved .

As an example , Moloney wins a clearance out of the middle , under pressure he might kick the ball forward towards CHF . Cloke , playing in front , takes the mark , thus making Moloney's kick more effective .

At the moment , our current CHF's are nowhere near as good as Cloke , so in the same instance , Moloney might decide to handpass backwards or try to break a tackle .

Carey improved North's midfield - mainly in their decision making . Neitz often did the same for us . Many times the Pies midfield will get a quick kick forward towards Cloke from the square - especially when they play against the better sides . It's a good percentage play .

Edited June 9, 2012 by Macca

[Range Rover 1,935]

This seems to suggest that somehow magically overnight a so -so midfiuled suddenly comes to life because of another target . To me this doesnt pan out logically.

What about the Weagles.?They added two quality mids in Shuey and Gaff to the mix, suddenly guys like S.Selwood, Masten and Rosa lift another notch and they are in business. There's no doubt in my mind those types gain confidence when they look up and see NicNat, the CueStick and Big Coxy rotating through the square. Everyone walks taller.

Take Jones, Beama, Grimes, Blease, Gys and Mckenzie ... add Viney and a couple of premo mids from the draft .... then have them raise their eyes and see Clark and Cloke barnstorming around the 50 arc and see what happens.

Howe, Green, Sylvia and Jurrah are good players (although Green's on his last legs and Jurrah who knows?) but they'll never be 'game changers'. Only the big monsters can do that.

Buy a diamond studded cart and watch the young horses perk up and bolt under the Neeld whip.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Range Rover

[beelzebub 23,376]

What about the Weagles.?They added two quality mids in Shuey and Gaff to the mix, suddenly guys like S.Selwood, Masten and Rosa lift another notch and they are in business. There's no doubt in my mind those types gain confidence when they look up and see NicNat, the CueStick and Big Coxy rotating through the square. Everyone walks taller.

Take Jones, Beama, Grimes, Blease, Gys and Mckenzie ... add Viney and a couple of premo mids from the draft .... then have them raise their eyes and see Clark and Cloke barnstorming around the 50 arc and see what happens.

Howe, Green, Sylvia and Jurrah jare okay good players but they'll never be 'game changers'. Only the big monsters can do that.

Buy a diamond studded cart and watch the young horses perk up and bolt under the Neeld whip.

Some how this has become skewed.

my whole argument is....NOt to get Cloke.. but TO get a quality MID !!

Now youre suggesting with the Eagles that it WAS the addition of mids that lifted the team. Isnt this exactly my point ?

The modern game , if im not mistaken is actually relying less and less on a makeup of mongrel forwards but more the idea of a forward makeupwith dynamic fluidity and more built around more athletic ,somewhat if slightly smaller than previously thought of style forwards.

Weve got forward talent already with some coming on. Absolutely pointless building more skyscapers down the front if the foundation of supply isnt there. You want to see stationary pointly monoliths standing side by side.... go to Kuala Lumpur !!

Scoreboard pressure eminates out of the guts. Load up the forwards with supply and create a day long headache for the oppositions defence ( in exactly the same mode ours has had to contend )

For me the question is simple... we have a warchest of bullion ready to throw somewhere. That somewhere for me screams the midfield, thats our priority. even with a massive quality injection into it the midfield willtake a good season to gel and harmonise. In this time some of our already in house forward talent can continue to come on.

Viney and another quality more more seasoned mid will light up the forward line. Mayeb we can indeed bolster stocks down the pointy end, have noproblem with that as such , just dont go spending money , big big money to do so. hence Avoid the Cloke , bank sucking scenarios.

We may just have to disagree on this...lol

[Range Rover 1,935]

Some how this has become skewed.

my whole argument is....NOt to get Cloke.. but TO get a quality MID !!

Now youre suggesting with the Eagles that it WAS the addition of mids that lifted the team. Isnt this exactly my point ?

The modern game , if im not mistaken is actually relying less and less on a makeup of mongrel forwards but more the idea of a forward makeupwith dynamic fluidity and more built around more athletic ,somewhat if slightly smaller than previously thought of style forwards.

Weve got forward talent already with some coming on. Absolutely pointless building more skyscapers down the front if the foundation of supply isnt there. You want to see stationary pointly monoliths standing side by side.... go to Kuala Lumpur !!

Scoreboard pressure eminates out of the guts. Load up the forwards with supply and create a day long headache for the oppositions defence ( in exactly the same mode ours has had to contend )

For me the question is simple... we have a warchest of bullion ready to throw somewhere. That somewhere for me screams the midfield, thats our priority. even with a massive quality injection into it the midfield willtake a good season to gel and harmonise. In this time some of our already in house forward talent can continue to come on.

Viney and another quality more more seasoned mid will light up the forward line. Mayeb we can indeed bolster stocks down the pointy end, have noproblem with that as such , just dont go spending money , big big money to do so. hence Avoid the Cloke , bank sucking scenarios.

We may just have to disagree on this...lol

For argument's sake, taking your point of view the question remains ... who is out there worth throwing cash at? Who is the midfield equivalent of Cloke currently available/out of contract?

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

We need Cloke and good mids QED. If we do not get Cloke we keep shopping. 2 Big targets in the forward line is the way. J Watts will play further up the ground.

Jack may end his career up forward but i think he is better used up the ground for now.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

For argument's sake, taking your point of view the question remains ... who is out there worth throwing cash at? Who is the midfield equivalent of Cloke currently available/out of contract?

There's no top echelon quality that is available / willing to move.

Like i said in a previous post, i believe the target is/should be midfield "role players", or players Neeld will back himself in too develop. Kennedy was never a star before he went to Sydney. Scotland was recruited to Carlton to be a role player and developed really well.

If there is no Judd type deal that can be made then this is the method that you build the team through quality trades.

[beelzebub 23,376]

For argument's sake, taking your point of view the question remains ... who is out there worth throwing cash at? Who is the midfield equivalent of Cloke currently available/out of contract?

we dont know yet. Its too early. The circus aka Free Agency has yet to really spring into life. I doubt it will ( publicly ) till towaards the eos when non finalists know their fate and well into the final series when it will go into overdirve leading into the trade period.

i have no doubt that within the industry there will be grapevines chattering away constantly but that will remain withiin walls.

We already seen some setltling with russian re-sgning and staying. This may very well occur at other clubs ( I certainly expect Cloke to follow suit ..i.e stay at filth )

I fess its a bit of a copout as I cant point to him or him or him etc and say...look at them as prospectives....not yet but they will appear later.

For others..please not ...my point isnt that we cant bolster any part of the field , and the forward line as any other aspect can always be supplemented, Im simply saying dont go buying a Cloke -like debt. The money is better spent elsewhere.

And some might agree..some wont.. that after all is the forum !! lol

[Range Rover 1,935]

We need Cloke and good mids QED. If we do not get Cloke we keep shopping. 2 Big targets in the forward line is the way. J Watts will play further up the ground.

Jack may end his career up forward but i think he is better used up the ground for now.

Here's what our hypothetical 'best side' would look like with Cloke in it heading to 2013.

Add Viney and a couple of high quality young mids from the super draft and we aren't that far off it IMO.

B: Garland Frawley Grimes

HB: Blease Rivers Watts

C: Morton Trengove Gysberts

HF: Sylvia Clark Howe

F: Jurrah Cloke (Pick 4)

R: Jamar Jones Viney

Int: Moloney McDonald (Pick 5) Magner

Edited June 9, 2012 by Range Rover

[beelzebub 23,376]

There's no top echelon quality that is available / willing to move.

you cant possibly know that as a fact...youre summising at best..Its an opinion..not fact. We'll know the facts later iin year.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

you cant possibly know that as a fact...youre summising at best..Its an opinion..not fact. We'll know the facts later iin year.

I don't know it as fact. I am summising. Likewise you are. No-one except those on the inside know the facts.

We are both on the same page though and agree the money could be better spent elsewhere and that is why i put forth the rest of my post on trading for role players or players we believe we can develop further rather than an absolute star mid (which as you would/should admit Belz, their is likely to be very few available if any)........

[Range Rover 1,935]

I don't know it as fact. I am summising. Likewise you are. No-one except those on the inside know the facts.

We are both on the same page though and agree the money could be better spent elsewhere and that is why i put forth the rest of my post on trading for role players or players we believe we can develop further rather than an absolute star mid (which as you would/should admit Belz, their is likely to be very few available if any)........

Give us some names (roleplayers) GSofaG ... like to hear your ideas.

[Range Rover 1,935]

And some might agree..some wont.. that after all is the forum !! lol

True. It's certainly not clear cut. Love to be a fly on the wall in those MFC list planning meetings for next year. Would be fascinating for the average supporter to sit in on something like that.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I don't know it as fact. I am summising. Likewise you are. No-one except those on the inside know the facts.

We are both on the same page though and agree the money could be better spent elsewhere and that is why i put forth the rest of my post on trading for role players or players we believe we can develop further rather than an absolute star mid (which as you would/should admit Belz, their is likely to be very few available if any)........

true enough. If i was a suspicios type id be looking for cracks to appear in some teams in about 6-7 weeks. Some agents/managers have gone earlywhilst others might find it all too tempting to start spruiking their lads before seasons end.

An aspect to all this I will find interesting will be how anyone actually views the prospect of a career at Melbourne ? This has been a stumbling block ( real or imagined ) in the past. . That is some likely types have given us a wide berth. With the new FD having had a year toshow some effect, witht ehlikes of jamar and possibly others re-signing how attractive might we actually look, whether its a Cloke or someone else. Or will the smell of folding green by itself be enough to snag a ready made ?

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I just think it tips the scale out of balance, if we are paying a player over odds it effects the team dynamic. Geelong built a team culture and players were payed under their market value to hold that team, no player would have accepted that deal if say Ablett was on a huge contract, that's why Geelong had to let him go. They lost their star and still won another flag.

Collingwood have kept their stars on lesser money that's also why they won't pay Cloke what others will offer, it tips the balance. He knows this and it is more likely he is really pushing for the extra year. If he gets 5 he stays at the money offered.

I'm for building from within as you state you are and I also like you think if we find a good fit we need to look at the player but not at the risk of the team.

Players will be falling out from GC at the end of this year and GWS the next, lets not blow it all on one man.

I don't think the money and term that is being quoted for Cloke is worth it. In fact I think it is a beat up to be truthful.

Cloke would be a simply massive addition to our list. In fact, any club's list.

I say, go hard at getting him.

To get him though, we need to offer him a better deal than any other club. Surely that's obvious.

We are not going to secure his services by offering him less that what the Pies offer him. In effect, we have to pay 'overs'.

It's not the same as keeping a player group together, Collingwood or Geelong style. Those players are already at those clubs, and they have an emotional commitment to each other and to the club. To dislodge an established player, it's financial not emotional.

Cloke will not be coming to the Dees because he loves the Dees. Hopefully he will come, and hopefully he will come to love the club in time - but, at this point in time, it's a commercial decision for him ... and his father.

Mitch Clark seemingly came to this club for commercial reasons. However, I don't think he'll ever play for another club now - at least, I hope not.

Get the cheque book out. Get Cloke.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Here's what our hypothetical 'best side' would look like with Cloke in it heading to 2013.

Add Viney and a couple of high quality young mids from the super draft and we aren't that far off it IMO.

B: Garland Frawley Grimes

HB: Blease Rivers Watts

C: Morton Trengove Gysberts

HF: Sylvia Clark Howe

F: Jurrah Cloke (Pick 4)

R: Jamar Jones Viney

Int: Moloney McDonald (Pick 5) Magner

You'd have to swap pick 4 and 5 with Taggert and Tynan at this stage. Pick 4 and 5 likely to start at Casey.

What about our small forward problem. We have none.

[Range Rover 1,935]

You'd have to swap pick 4 and 5 with Taggert and Tynan at this stage. Pick 4 and 5 likely to start at Casey.

What about our small forward problem. We have none.

You would think any pick 4 or 5 mid from this year's superdraft would automatically go ahead of Tynan and Taggert on pure ability and speed.

This level of ability alone - even as an 18yo - I'd prefer over a Tynan or Taggert in a forward pocket.

Viney is also an option down there as an aggressive defensive forward option. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see Neeld use him in this role next year.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Range Rover

[beelzebub 23,376]

I have every expctation the only real instruction Viney will be given...and somewhat redundant anyway,...SEE BALL...GET BALL !!

[Range Rover 1,935]

I have every expctation the only real instruction Viney will be given...and somewhat redundant anyway,...SEE BALL...GET BALL !!

I'd love to see him play a few games where he's given one instruction ... "Jack - DO NOT let the ball leave the 50 arc"!!

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

You would think any pick 4 or 5 mid from this year's superdraft would automatically go ahead of Tynan and Taggert on pure ability and speed.

This level of ability alone - even as an 18yo - I'd prefer over a Tynan or Taggert in a forward pocket.

Viney is also an option down there as an aggressive defensive forward option. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see Neeld use him in this role next year.

Wouldn't you really only know that after you've seen them play a couple? Oh and just realised- it's not going to be pick 4 and 5- it's either going to be pick 3, or 4, or 5. We won't finish last and we will spend first pick on Viney. Just to knit pick.

Who is pick 3-5 likely to be this draft and will he be good enough to be plug and play, that is the question.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

I'd love to see him play a few games where he's given one instruction ... "Jack - DO NOT let the ball leave the 50 arc"!!

wasted in 50 arc. His instructions are as follows- Jack, DO NOT let the ball enter opponent's 50 arc!!

[Range Rover 1,935]

Wouldn't you really only know that after you've seen them play a couple? Oh and just realised- it's not going to be pick 4 and 5- it's either going to be pick 3, or 4, or 5. We won't finish last and we will spend first pick on Viney. Just to knit pick.

Who is pick 3-5 likely to be this draft and will he be good enough to be plug and play, that is the question.

This I don't know, only that I keep hearing the first 5- 7 players in this year's draft are 'specials'. All due respect to Tynan and Taggert but they were picked late for a reason.

wasted in 50 arc. His instructions are as follows- Jack, DO NOT let the ball enter opponent's 50 arc!!

This should be the case in time but I don't think we can expect Viney to be a dominant AFL mid in his first season. Would have to be an absolute freak to achieve that. I don't see the harm in getting him to play the defensive forward role in his first season.

Did he kick many goals at junior level? Can anyone enlighten?

Edited June 9, 2012 by Range Rover

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

This should be the case in time but I don't think we can expect Viney to be a dominant AFL mid in his first season. Would have to be an absolute freak to achieve that. I don't see the harm in getting him to play the defensive forward role in his first season.

Did he kick many goals at junior level? Can anyone enlighten?

I don't know but all reports are he should be able to mix it with AFL experienced players from round 1, and although I don't expect him to dominate, he is already a clearance freak. He would have to be the best clearance player at our club already. I heard someone refer to him as "a more angry Mitchell.." I like this comparison.

What if our first pick after Viney is a skinny kid? Would he get a gig over Tynan/Taggert first up? Probably not. What are we going to do about our lack of small forward? Who is available in this "super draft" to fix this problem?

[Range Rover 1,935]

I don't know but all reports are he should be able to mix it with AFL experienced players from round 1, and although I don't expect him to dominate, he is already a clearance freak. He would have to be the best clearance player at our club already. I heard someone refer to him as "a more angry Mitchell.." I like this comparison.

What if our first pick after Viney is a skinny kid? Would he get a gig over Tynan/Taggert first up? Probably not. What are we going to do about our lack of small forward? Who is available in this "super draft" to fix this problem?

God help us if we draft yet more kids with arms the thickness of San Remo spaghetti.

I don't normally read Bigfooty but apparently this guy 'Knightmare' does some very accurate mock drafts each season.

Although done a bit early, this effort of his is worth a look.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/knightmares-2012-mock-draft.901363/

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Hmmmm... Stringer or Vlastuin.... Vlastuin sounds a little similar to Viney- both sound like freaks, would be wraped with either one.

Imagine Vlastuin and Viney in the guts. Clearance problems solved in one foul swoop. Jones can be used more outside. I wonder how Gysberts will fit into the mix. He can get his own ball, but wouldn't have to.

Stringer to me sounds more like an "icing on the cake" type player. Like that he can be swung anywhere. I kind of like that we won't have pick 1- takes the pressure off getting the pick right. I would be happy with anyone in that top 5. This makes my decision to grab Cloke even more justified. I truely believe we can solve our clearance problems with this draft. Good times.