The Problem

[Dee Fan 3,247]

we were kicking to the ponsford end, and the Hawks were given a free, there was some sort of delay getting the ball back to the player which meant everyone had ample times to get into position and man up... yet, when he got the ball back he looked up to see a teammate 40 metres up the field, straight in the corridor, with nobody anywhere near him and of course he took that option and away they went

I honestly could not believe what I was seeing, when I was in the under-11s I had enough nous to realise that if you left an opponent alone in the perfect spot like that he was definitely going to get it passed to him so I went and manned him up. How we can continue to witness these fundamental errors really blows mt mind, and is tarting to make me have grave doubts about the coach

I think I remember that or one exactly the same and remarked to my son how lax we are in manning up. We could have had an extra five minutes and I bet he still would have been left.

During the third quarter there was a big pack of players fighting for the ball on the Ponsford Stand end and I noticed that there were 5 Hawks players standing back in a circle around the pack but not one Dees player. So what happens if the ball comes out? You guessed it the Hawks are there we aren't and away they go.

Simple really but for some reason, or due to lack of discipline, we are in the wrong spot.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

If we were trying to perform well this year instead of trying to win a premiership down the track then we would have traded for Fevola.

How would trading for a Fevola (off-field stuff aside) not help Melbourne win a Premiership in the future?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

If we were trying to perform well this year instead of trying to win a premiership down the track then we would have traded for Fevola.

I'm sure that I'd rather be trying to win a flag in 4 years with Gysberts and Tapscott, though. That said, I'd be looking to bring Martin into the side next week.

The biggest problem is that we are afraid to make mistakes. We aren't breaking through the lines because that requires taking a risk, and most of our players are afraid to make a mistake. A few times in the 3rd quarter Scully took the ball and just ran forward despite the risks involved, and we looked more dangerous.

The idea that you drag Strauss, a kid in his first game trying to get used to the massive step up in intensity and pressure, because he dropped a mark is absolutely stupid. It might make RobbieF feel better that he's managed to yell at a kid like the big tough internet hero he is, but it is so counter-productive to make a kid, who is already scared of making a mistake, even more afraid of making a mistake when we are wanting him to feel calm and composed.

How exactly will yelling at him stop him dropping the mark next time? Was he trying to drop the mark this time, so you need to tell him that he needs to try to take the mark? Was he not trying hard enough to take the mark?

People need to think.

For starters I didn't yell at him I simply suggested to my son that I didn't think he was up to it. That was one of the worst errors I have seen on a football field and if you believe that it was acceptable to leave him on and not at least call him off and have a strong word with him then we differ. It wasn't just the dropped mark it was what happened after he dropped it, I suggest you have another look at it.

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

You said that Bailey should drag him and tell him it was unacceptable. Do you think that this is something that he wouldn't already know? Would it help at all?

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

Clint, seriously?!? Fevola wouldn't help us because when we are challenging for a flag he will have retired. Plus, we would have had to trade picks 11 and 18 for him, which means we wouldn't have Gysberts or Tapscott. So, in essence, we'd be going for a flag with any of those players, since Gysberts and Tapscott would be playing at Brisbane and Fevola would be playing in retirement.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

You said that Bailey should drag him and tell him it was unacceptable. Do you think that this is something that he wouldn't already know? Would it help at all?

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

Clint, seriously?!? Fevola wouldn't help us because when we are challenging for a flag he will have retired. Plus, we would have had to trade picks 11 and 18 for him, which means we wouldn't have Gysberts or Tapscott. So, in essence, we'd be going for a flag with any of those players, since Gysberts and Tapscott would be playing at Brisbane and Fevola would be playing in retirement.

Well let me ask you, do you think it was acceptable? Perhaps i have higher expectations than you. Bailey didn't have to berate him, your words he simply had to pull him off the ground and let him know what he did wrong and was unacceptable. This is AFL not TAC there are higher expectations on player here.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Clint, seriously?!? Fevola wouldn't help us because when we are challenging for a flag he will have retired. Plus, we would have had to trade picks 11 and 18 for him, which means we wouldn't have Gysberts or Tapscott. So, in essence, we'd be going for a flag with any of those players, since Gysberts and Tapscott would be playing at Brisbane and Fevola would be playing in retirement.

A player such as Fevola (or Bradshaw who Melbourne could have got for free) would bring Melbourne's chances of a Premiership forward. They would help other players develop, and develop more quickly and effectively as they would be developing in a stronger team and not losing every week. Sure, they may not be there if Melbourne did make a Grand Final but they should help them get there.

You lot can have your five year plans.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Now is not the time to be drafting forwards in the twilight of their career.

We are in the completely wrong time in our cycle to even contemplate that.

Lets get a team together which is mildly competent and then look at filling gaps with established players. At the moment nobody in their right mind would choose to end their career with us, nor will they help us achieve our long term goals.

I would argue that Joel McDonald will not be in our starting 22 when we are ready to have a tilt. Therefore who adds more value in the present time Bradshaw or McDonald? He would not be their for a premiership tilt but he adds to the current structure and would assist with player development.

People will argue that drafting Bradshaw takes away the ability for a younger player to get valuable game time. I would argue that drafting Bradshaw would allow a player like Watts or Jurrah to not have to play as the focal point in a forwardline for their first 30-50 games of football.

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

You didn't answer my question.

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

I will answer your question. No it was not acceptable, but it was a skill error and not one that was due to any factor that could be corrected by dragging him. Strauss knew that he stuffed up, and the hardest thing for him was to move on and put the mistake out of his mind.

Now I've answered your question, how about you answer mine. I'll repeat it. Then underline it. And then make it bold.

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

A player such as Fevola (or Bradshaw who Melbourne could have got for free) would bring Melbourne's chances of a Premiership forward. They would help other players develop, and develop more quickly and effectively as they would be developing in a stronger team and not losing every week. Sure, they may not be there if Melbourne did make a Grand Final but they should help them get there.

You lot can have your five year plans.

I've had 46 years of 5 year plans and they seem to start every year. We get what we expect at melbourne, nothing.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

You didn't answer my question.

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

I will answer your question. No it was not acceptable, but it was a skill error and not one that was due to any factor that could be corrected by dragging him. Strauss knew that he stuffed up, and the hardest thing for him was to move on and put the mistake out of his mind.

Now I've answered your question, how about you answer mine. I'll repeat it. Then underline it. And then make it bold.

What would you hope to achieve by doing it, and why would dragging and berating him help to achieve this?

I would do it so it would show and him all those around him that it was unacceptable and that we have higher standards than they do in TAC games or School matches. I would do it to show him that we need mental and physical toughness out there and if he wasn't prepared to show it he could move on.

No need to underline I can read without that and no point in being nasty because you differ with me.

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

I don't know if I agree anymore Jaded. You won't have a team that is mildy competent if it has no forward line and does what we did yesterday. This "cycle" and "premiershipclock" or "window of opportunity" sloganism is starting to give me the irits. Clubs should be trying to perform well all the time and while doing that the younger players get a winning culture, sorry for the slogan, and learn a game style. What harm does it do to draft/trade a big body forward who can give us 3-4 years and a target while Watts, Fitzpatrick etc develop. Getting smashed and playing crap football is not a way to learn or develop a team. I used Leigh Brown only as an example of a big strong forward who actually can also have spells in the ruck and backline. I think the Pies are happy to have him and there must be others around. This policy of we are only looking at youth for every pick and deal is in need of a little fine tuning. We seem to have plenty of young immature footballers and a couple of big bodies to give us some strength and leadership on the field may be worth its weight in gold.

Yes i am a little worried about this complete youth policy now.

I was worried last year & i still am.

These kids getting belted each week is not going to turn them into premiership players. So its going to put the heat on the Footy Dept now

I hope the team plays Man on Man next week and learns from his opponent.

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

Well you missed my question the first time, so I figured that I'd shame you into answering it. It worked.

Do you honestly think that he wouldn't know that dropping a mark in the goalsquare, which resulted in a goal, was unacceptable? How stupid do you think he is?

I just think that you want an emotional response to make you feel like Strauss has been 'punished' for making the mistake, but I do not think that you have any idea of how your rash emotional response will help Strauss be a better player at all.

I advocate dragging a player for certain things, like ducking your head, shirking a contest and not chasing hard enough or following team rules. These are situations that a coach can correct by dragging a player. But making skill errors and dropping marks is not something that the coach will help by punishing a player. In fact, it makes it much worse because they are living in constant fear of making a mistake. They see getting a serve from the coach as a direct consequence of making a mistake, so they play it safe and don't take risks. That's the worst thing to do, especially for a young team.

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

WYL, it didn't seem to stop Hawthorn winning a flag in 2008.

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

WYL, it didn't seem to stop Hawthorn winning a flag in 2008.

We are in a far worse position than hawthorn were in 2004-2005.

Thats why i always believed we needed to recruit one senior player to help teach the kids on the park.

But its just my opinion and i will keep rolling up to watch the games don't worry.

[Ho Chi Dee 0]

Yes i am a little worried about this complete youth policy now.

I was worried last year & i still am.

These kids getting belted each week is not going to turn them into premiership players. So its going to put the heat on the Footy Dept now

I hope the team plays Man on Man next week and learns from his opponent.

And you call me Mr Doom?! Don't you ever get tired of being so reactionary?

No team has ever been stripped back to the level Melbourne is now. Most other teams that have gone down the 'youth' path have at least had a handful of decent senior players to help pull things back together much faster. Aside from Green and Davey, Melbourne has no senior player that is above average.

The team is about where anyone who gave it some rational consideration would think it would be. It's going to take a long time to become a consistently good team. Yes, yesterday was terrible. We should be doing better than that. But what have been the real alternatives to going the youth path we have?

Bob is correct. Trading in for a KPF would not have been the answer, by the time we'll be ready for one, whoever we'd traded for would be past it. And apart from Tippet (2 picks after Petterd from memory?), there hasn't been an opportunity for us to pick up additional KPFs in the draft positions we've had.

Bradshaw has really been the only option. Yes, he'd only have been here for a year, but I've sympathy for the views that we should have taken him. But again, apart from that, there's been few options to recruit senior KPFs that would have helped more than they'd hindered (i.e. through loss of picks).

The overwhelming majority of our class is between 18 and 20 and they have little protection. Many posters on here need to seriously assess where the list is at and save themselves the reactionary swings between unsubstantiated enthusiasm and unjustified criticism.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Melbourne should have drafted Matt McGuire instead of Fitzpatrick and Bradshaw instead of Macdonald.

[Ho Chi Dee 0]

Melbourne should have drafted Matt McGuire instead of Fitzpatrick and Bradshaw instead of Macdonald.

No to the first, a good case for the second.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Ho Chi Dee

[LIFT 0]

I was staggered by the game of Miller. Does this bloke have incriminating pictures of senior people at the club or do the people just love looking at his wife at club functions. Why Robbo, our leading goal kicker, was not retained over this guy blows me away. Please Gold Coast, take him off our hands.

Bate was probably under done but he was soundly beaten by a novice in Suckling for Hawthorn. Please Lift.

In fairness to Strauss on debut, he is very inexperienced as given his injury he had limited time playing against men at Casey last year. However it was interesting to see the form of Luke Shuey (pick 18 between Blease and Strauss) do so well in Brisbane for the Eagles last night.

Which is the real worry. Is our club just incapable of developing our players to get better and reach their potential. Maybe Frawley, Warnock and Grimes have improved under Dean Bailey. I have real concerns over his ability to coach and win games.

Hawthorn clearly run a good program. Look at what they did with Carl Peterson. Nowhere at Richmond gets into the Hawthorn System and he plays brilliantly on debut.

Hawthorn had senior guns in Croad and Crawford in their premiership team, great 2001 draft with Hodge, Mitchell, Ladson and Brown great 2004 drafts with Buddy, Roughy and Lewis and then filled in the side as required 2004- 2007.

God I hope our recent drafts can bare the same fruit.

Scully, McKenzie and Trengove looked great.

Hopefully Jamar can stay on the park this week.

As the season develops we can hopefully get Sylvia, Watts, Garland, Woenamarri, Jurrah and Morton back into the side.

Make no mistake Hawthorn are a seriously good confident team hungry for success.

With a bit of luck Round 1 is bedrock for our 2010 season and it is only up from here.

[Eth 4]

Should've drafted Daniel Bradshaw with pick 1 in the PSD. I know you guys scoffed at the suggestion but at least we would have someone to kick to inside 50. Surely he would've been more value than Joel MacDonald who everyone was saying was rubbish today.

I guess we were too nice and let him go to Sydney and give them evey chance to make the finals...even though we had salary space. I know he's not the future but at least he might have made us a tiny bit more competitive over the next 3 years.

And I can't be arsed arguing why we didn't invest in a top 18 draft pick on a key forward.

One reason we should've selected Daniel Bradshaw - someone to kick to. So when Watts becomes a key forward, we know how to kick to him. And why we didn't pick Aaron Black in the Draft I don't know, he was easily the second-best key forward there. He dropped down to the late 20s in the end I think.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The Bradshaw one had me interested during trade time. It didn't fit with our policy at the time... but jeez... it's Bradshaw. The guy is a gun, and would have made a HUGE difference for us.

Not to worry though. I think we'll see the club take a different tack with trading come 2011/12. By which time Bradshaw will be done, or close to it.

[Redleg 41,427]

WYL, it didn't seem to stop Hawthorn winning a flag in 2008.

Bob, Dew, Croad, Gilham and Guerra as some examples were recruited by the Hawks as older players and then they also drafted two key forwards and we know who they are and they won their flag.

I never said we needed a star player like Fevola, who would cost plenty, but rather someone who would not cost much and maybe nothing in a pre season draft, or a minor trade and I used Leigh Brown as an example.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Redleg

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

Redleg, all of those players are bit part players for when you haave the fundamentals of a strong team. Just like Barry Hall at the Bulldogs.

But we are in the position where we need to get the base of the cake right. That base will hopefully include players like Gysberts and Tapscott. Once that base in settled then we can start trading for players who will make a more immediate impact. Just like Geelong did with Ottens. And Hawthorn have done with Burgoyne, Gibson, and drafting mature aged players like Peterson and Kayler-Thompson.

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

And you call me Mr Doom?! Don't you ever get tired of being so reactionary?

No team has ever been stripped back to the level Melbourne is now. Most other teams that have gone down the 'youth' path have at least had a handful of decent senior players to help pull things back together much faster. Aside from Green and Davey, Melbourne has no senior player that is above average.

The team is about where anyone who gave it some rational consideration would think it would be. It's going to take a long time to become a consistently good team. Yes, yesterday was terrible. We should be doing better than that. But what have been the real alternatives to going the youth path we have?

Bob is correct. Trading in for a KPF would not have been the answer, by the time we'll be ready for one, whoever we'd traded for would be past it. And apart from Tippet (2 picks after Petterd from memory?), there hasn't been an opportunity for us to pick up additional KPFs in the draft positions we've had.

Bradshaw has really been the only option. Yes, he'd only have been here for a year, but I've sympathy for the views that we should have taken him. But again, apart from that, there's been few options to recruit senior KPFs that would have helped more than they'd hindered (i.e. through loss of picks).

The overwhelming majority of our class is between 18 and 20 and they have little protection. Many posters on here need to seriously assess where the list is at and save themselves the reactionary swings between unsubstantiated enthusiasm and unjustified criticism.

That's all i ask that yesterdays performance should have been way better-and my other bug is all these people who say we should not recruit a KPF because by the time the team is ready he will be on the pension! What a load of rot.

Get the KPF so the young kids know where to kick and how to get to the forward line.

A 3 year KPF would have been a great idea in my opinion.

Kicking 1 goal to half time doesnt teach anybody anything apart from killing spirit.

Bailey put in a shocker yesterday and our kids need better than that.

[Demon16 69]

Redleg, all of those players are bit part players for when you haave the fundamentals of a strong team. Just like Barry Hall at the Bulldogs.

But we are in the position where we need to get the base of the cake right. That base will hopefully include players like Gysberts and Tapscott. Once that base in settled then we can start trading for players who will make a more immediate impact. Just like Geelong did with Ottens. And Hawthorn have done with Burgoyne, Gibson, and drafting mature aged players like Peterson and Kayler-Thompson.

agree, but we also need some experience in some shape or form to at least give a level of competetiveness until Jack Watts hits his peak in 5-6 years. thats a long time to wait when you've been a basket case for the past 3 years.

[Ho Chi Dee 0]

That's all i ask that yesterdays performance should have been way better-and my other bug is all these people who say we should not recruit a KPF because by the time the team is ready he will be on the pension! What a load of rot.

Get the KPF so the young kids know where to kick and how to get to the forward line.

A 3 year KPF would have been a great idea in my opinion.

Kicking 1 goal to half time doesnt teach anybody anything apart from killing spirit.

Bailey put in a shocker yesterday and our kids need better than that.

But which 2-3 year KPF other than Bradshaw has been an achievable target and at what cost?

Bob's anaolgy works - it's currently about getting the base of the cake right. To do that we need to use our high picks and use them well.

When St. Kilda picked up the pieces for their current side it was 2000-2002. Yes they had good years not long after, but they were led mainly by then-senior players. We don't have a senior playing stock that is capable of that. So if it's taken the current St. Kilda core 6-8 years to be as good as they are, it's reasonable to think it will take something similar for us. I'm not sure many people want to acknowledge that. That is not however an excuse for dishing up yesterday's first half.

All of the other players named in this thread bar Bradsaw would have added very little. Any good KPF we could have recruited would have cost us a decent chunk of our cake base.

Once Sylvia, Jurrah. Morton, Garland are back in we will look better than yesterday - but it's going to take a long time yet to be really good.

Recruiting yet more medicore KPFs is not going to speed up the process.

I think Bob has had this thread covered.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Ho Chi Dee