............................ What is this obvious reason he is in the leadership group? Train hard so you don't have to perform on the field?

Umm ..... maybe because he ranks highly against all or most of the criteria that the FD and his team mates use to determine who will be in the group.

Most players in all clubs lose form and get dropped from time to time over their careers, and by your reckoning it seems that that's they are all 'bloody useless'. Come on Stinga!!!

Not the good players and not 26 year olds who should be at their peak.

Not the good players and not 26 year olds who should be at their peak.

Miller will never ever be a world beater- he is a genuine trier with minumum skills. However, every club needs a committed clubman like him. He is a worthy team player whom gets in my best 22 currently.

i think the reason miller gets 'bashed' so much is because we all expect our CHF's to be dominant players, which miller isnt. he is an ordinary player who does his best on the field, and we currently have no other CHF's capable of playing at AFL level, let alone better than miller does.

Redleg got it right. He will eventually be overtaken, but until then expect him to play at least 70% of games, and to be honest, I hope he passes on his work ethic both at training and around the ground to all the young tall players at the club.

If he was a better kick at goal from 50 meters no one would be bagging him out.

RE petterd, i think the biggest problem is that while he is talented and a good prospect and a tough nut, he hasnt looked like owning a position. yeah he can kicks goals - sometimes. he does alright off a back flank. could be used in the midfield. after 3 years, we still dont know where he should be played. Is he good enough to be a jack of all trades? i'm not sure. but if after 4 years he doesnt look like having a position he can call his own i can understand the reservations people might have for him.

if he doesnt have a good year and is out of contact which 4 players would you delist ahead of him? the only names i can think of that could be in that bracket are bartram and bell. we will need to delist 4 players at the end of the year, and if petterd has an ordinary year he COULD be in the firing line, especially if a couple of other border line players stand up.

What are these criteria's? The leadership group just looks like a job for mates club to me.

yeah thats exactly how leadership groups work. the captain picks his 5 best mates.

Miller needs to improve drastically in both skill level and consistency to stay on our list beyond 2010.

I know he's a great 'clubman' and all, but that's the bottom line. The fact the match committee have kept dropping him over the past couple of seasons, even though our forward line has been terrible would indicate this too..

I thought so. How else can you explain our worst player being in the leadership group?

im not sure if you have much knowledge of the concept of leadership, but typically 'best player' is not part of the description.

He is vocal and supportive, he trains hard and runs hard all day - which means even if he is not a world beater he is leadering by example with work ethic, which is far more important in leadership terms than doing fancy things well. he goes in hard and will throw his body around, he will fly the flag for young players.

Did I mention how vocal he is on both the training track and on match days?

Leadership is about getting the best out of other players, about standing up (in millers case physically) when required and about encouraging and supporting teammates.

Miller might not be a lot of things, but in my opinion a leader is one of the things he is. And in a club devoid of leadership that is recognised by making him part of the leadership group.

What are these criteria's? The leadership group just looks like a job for mates club to me.

When the discussion sinks to this level of intelligence, it's about time I opted out!

Bate is our CHF. He is a million times better than Miller and he has shown more at CHF than Miller has in his 8 years of failing to hold down CHF.

Bate is a fantastic and underrated player who I think will have a breakout year this year (if last year wasn't his breakout year). That being said he does not play tall enough to be the focal CHF and is being currently utilised in the capacity of a tall flanker (similar to robbo was over the years). He has a fantastic motor, and very good pace off the mark meaning he pushes and rotates up the field (read: in the midfield) and drifts closer to goal as well. As a result he is currently not playing the true CHF role, but a different role.

That being said, while I rate Bate, last year was his first year of good consistent footy for the whole season, he really found his straps. And you could argue that Miller struggled for games in the middle of last season. However, once he got back into the team he played some of his best footy for the year kicking 6.7 in 5 games average around 15 disposals and over 6 marks a game.

.......

if he doesnt have a good year and is out of contact which 4 players would you delist ahead of him? the only names i can think of that could be in that bracket are bartram and bell. we will need to delist 4 players at the end of the year, and if petterd has an ordinary year he COULD be in the firing line, especially if a couple of other border line players stand up.

Probably Bail, Cheney, Dunn & Johnson can be added to your list - they will need to have an impact this year. Not sure where their contracts are tho'.

Probably Bail, Cheney, Dunn & Johnson can be added to your list - they will need to have an impact this year. Not sure where their contracts are tho'.

fair point, there are a couple in the mix there, although methinks johnson is safe with our lack of ruck ready to play at afl level. but it only takes an indifferent year from petterd and solid years from 2-3 of the other listed players to have petterd in the delist zone, simply because of the rate of turn over players from the previous few years.

Bate is a fantastic and underrated player who I think will have a breakout year this year (if last year wasn't his breakout year). That being said he does not play tall enough to be the focal CHF and is being currently utilised in the capacity of a tall flanker (similar to robbo was over the years). He has a fantastic motor, and very good pace off the mark meaning he pushes and rotates up the field (read: in the midfield) and drifts closer to goal as well. As a result he is currently not playing the true CHF role, but a different role.

That being said, while I rate Bate, last year was his first year of good consistent footy for the whole season, he really found his straps. And you could argue that Miller struggled for games in the middle of last season. However, once he got back into the team he played some of his best footy for the year kicking 6.7 in 5 games average around 15 disposals and over 6 marks a game.

Bate doesn't get off the ground and neither does Miller. I would argue that Miller doesn't play tall either. A 6 footer could play the lead up role that Miller plays.

Bate is quicker, possibly stronger, more mobile and has better finishing than Miller therefore is a better option.

We have one player from Walpirri who is capable of flying for marks consistently in the forward line. Watts is a possibilty and Garland could be that player. Petterd, Green and Sylvia are some other small marking options to goal.

Unfortunately for Miller he has extremely low efficency. He misses shots at goal when within range. Away from goal he consistently selects the wrong option or cannot execute.

Bate doesn't get off the ground and neither does Miller. I would argue that Miller doesn't play tall either. A 6 footer could play the lead up role that Miller plays.

Bate is quicker, possibly stronger, more mobile and has better finishing than Miller therefore is a better option.

We have one player from Walpirri who is capable of flying for marks consistently in the forward line. Watts is a possibilty and Garland could be that player. Petterd, Green and Sylvia are some other small marking options to goal.

Unfortunately for Miller he has extremely low efficency. He misses shots at goal when within range. Away from goal he consistently selects the wrong option or cannot execute.

You have summed it up perfectly. and you even managed to point out our other 'options' instead of Miller, which simply shows why Miller is our only current option, and why he gets a game.

Bate another player that also has limitations even if he is a better overall player than Miller, but as you described, his limitations make him more effective playing a different role.

LJ who has played 9 games in his 1 season of AFL, despite the fact that we all believe he will make it long term, has no runs on the board just yet.

Watts, an 18 year old who still needs to put on another 5+ kgs before he is consider to play in a key forward position and who got monstered when he stepped onto an afl field last year.

Garland, a promising young player who has played one fantastic season in the backline.

and petterd, green and sylvia, who while effective small players are about as close to being CHF's as I am.

I think my point was that our forward line structure is the most difficult line at this time to predict. Our backs are starting to get settled. We have a plethora of midfield stocks (albeit under-developed).

There will be spots up for grabs and there will be still a lot of experimentation to be done. Miller may well find himself on the outer by halfway through the season.

Of a lot of interest to me is where do Davey, Sylvia and Green fit in. If the midfield improves will one or 2 of these guys stay forward?

Leadership is about getting the best out of other players, about standing up (in millers case physically) when required and about encouraging and supporting teammates.

Miller might not be a lot of things, but in my opinion a leader is one of the things he is. And in a club devoid of leadership that is recognised by making him part of the leadership group.

The problem is, the message is unlikely to stick with the younger players if you haven't put the 'runs on the board' yourself as an AFL player..

If I were a young & talented key forward at Melbourne, i'm sure i'd like Brad Miller as a person, but I would pay little respect to what he has to say about becoming an AFL player, because he's achieved virtually nothing in a 7 year career at the club..

I'd be looking elsewhere for role models to be honest...

The problem is, the message is unlikely to stick with the younger players if you haven't put the 'runs on the board' yourself as an AFL player..

If I were a young & talented key forward at Melbourne, i'm sure i'd like Brad Miller as a person, but I would pay little respect to what he has to say about becoming an AFL player, because he's achieved virtually nothing in a 7 year career at the club..

I'd be looking elsewhere for role models to be honest...

really? i hope that the young and talented key forwards would watch how hard he runs and try and match that. yeah, i know they can out kick him, but if in every drill he is 10 meters ahead of me because i wasn't trying, i'd be embarrassed. and I definitely wouldn't want to argue I deserve a spot ahead of someone if I don't train as hard as they do, unless I was a superstar, of which none of our young kids are yet.

If anything, his example could be that pure natural talent means nothing if you are not willing to put in the hard yards to get the best out of yourself.

I think my point was that our forward line structure is the most difficult line at this time to predict. Our backs are starting to get settled. We have a plethora of midfield stocks (albeit under-developed).

There will be spots up for grabs and there will be still a lot of experimentation to be done. Miller may well find himself on the outer by halfway through the season.

Of a lot of interest to me is where do Davey, Sylvia and Green fit in. If the midfield improves will one or 2 of these guys stay forward?

fair enough, but im not sure who of your suggestions take the CHF spot away from miller. other than watts (who is still at least a season away from it) none of the other players are CHF's, unless they play Bate in that position.

I would like to see green and davey play a lot more forward, but i see green playing off the full forward line rather than the CHF line, and if he does push up the ground it will be to a flanker/midfield rotating role, not a CHF role.

sylvia will play of a HFF, but will also get pushed into the guts a bit methinks, and while he is strong, he isnt tall enough to replace miller at CHF.

Regardless of how tall miller plays, you cannot afford to play a short player as your CHF as they will get smashed by the CHB's when the ball is in the air.

really? i hope that the young and talented key forwards would watch how hard he runs and try and match that. yeah, i know they can out kick him, but if in every drill he is 10 meters ahead of me because i wasn't trying, i'd be embarrassed. and I definitely wouldn't want to argue I deserve a spot ahead of someone if I don't train as hard as they do, unless I was a superstar, of which none of our young kids are yet.

If anything, his example could be that pure natural talent means nothing if you are not willing to put in the hard yards to get the best out of yourself.

I understand where you're coming from, but i think there's two major components to being a good AFL player. 1. To have the kind of professional attitude towards training and preparation that Miller has, and 2. Ability, talent, performance on the field, or whatever you want to call it...

He has the first, but the jury is seriously out on the second..

All i'm saying is that if I'm seeing a teammate, who is a leader of the club out on the field, who is spilling lace-out passes off his chest, missing targets from 10-30 metres away regularly, giving away pointless free kicks, and missing straight-forward shots on goal often, i'm not going to respect him as a 'player'...and that has ramifications, i believe, for how you perceive him as a 'leader'. I still believe that the most crucial aspect of being a leader is to 'lead by example' with your exploits.

The words, attitude towards training, and attitude off-the-field are very important, but they carry no weight if you can't back it up with actions on the field for mine..

... I still believe that the most crucial aspect of being a leader is to 'lead by example' with your exploits. ...

i agree with you here, but we obviously have a different idea of which part of the exploits need to be the leading by example. i think its the exploits which involve putting your body on the line, the team first, doing the 1%ers and backing up your team mates that are more valuable that the skill set, however the skill set is important.

but i think you are now taking away a bit from brad miller as a player. he may not be great, but he marks well and he throws the body around, where he lets himself down is his kicking for goal.

i agree with you here, but we obviously have a different idea of which part of the exploits need to be the leading by example. i think its the exploits which involve putting your body on the line, the team first, doing the 1%ers and backing up your team mates that are more valuable that the skill set, however the skill set is important.

but i think you are now taking away a bit from brad miller as a player. he may not be great, but he marks well and he throws the body around, where he lets himself down is his kicking for goal.

It would be great to see Brad become a good player for us. He's certainly showed at times during his career that he has the ability to provide a solid contribution for us in the forward half, but he just hasn't done it consistantly enough to warrant selection week in week out..

At 26/27 years of age, he's had plenty of years in the system to improve his weaknesses, and I just don't think he'd find a spot on any of the other 15 clubs senior lists at this stage. Just my opinion...

The problem is, the message is unlikely to stick with the younger players if you haven't put the 'runs on the board' yourself as an AFL player..

If I were a young & talented key forward at Melbourne, i'm sure i'd like Brad Miller as a person, but I would pay little respect to what he has to say about becoming an AFL player, because he's achieved virtually nothing in a 7 year career at the club..

I'd be looking elsewhere for role models to be honest...

Just to let you know Brad was drafted in 2001--PICK 55.

It would be great to see Brad become a good player for us. He's certainly showed at times during his career that he has the ability to provide a solid contribution for us in the forward half, but he just hasn't done it consistantly enough to warrant selection week in week out..

Have been lurking for quite a while - this is my first post. It had to be about Miller!

Tend to agree with Benny here.

I've been as critical and exasperated with BM as anyone over the years, but having watched him and watched him, gone home shaking my head, swearing, and racked my brains over him for so long, I've concluded that his greatest weakness by far is his kicking for goal. Hardly a game goes by when he doesn't shank at least one, usually two, shots at goal from 40 metres - that's the outer limit of his kicking range - or less. He gets under the ball dreadfully, has no penetration. And he can't deliver well by foot to team-mates. Hence his tendency to play a lead-up-the-field game, take the mark and hand-ball quickly and slickly to someone who might be smart enough to know BM is a one-trick pony and take it at full tilt - looks good if it comes off. Riewoldt plays a lot like this, marking near the wing, but he can deliver the ball with much more confidence and is anyway a much more intuitive and athletic player.

But, if Miller could kick a goal reliably and consistently from 40 metres, he'd possibly be a 2 goal per match player; if he could kick 40 to 45 (goals, not metres) for a season we'd be laughing. He CAN get the ball, despite what his main detractors say, and often enough within the fifty to get a couple. If only he could kick like Green.

Watts will not play CHF in game 1, he may not be in the team at all. Garland won't be playing for a while. Bate is simply not tall enough; can't 'play tall' either. Newton is a rookie and is infinitely worse than Miller; unco and he has no heart. Fitzpatrick is a season or two away, by the sound of it, same with Gawn who will surely be a ruckman. Morton is too thin, and anyway his great asset is his incredible running ability around the ground. Short of a surprise experiment like Jamar (best centre bounce ruck we have, but can take a mark and kick a goal and would be a target) or PJ or.... Martin, or.... even Rivers (!?), Miller is, by a process of fateful elimination, the best early-season option for CHF. I don't expect his kicking to improve after all these years.

Having mentioned Martin and Rivers, though.... if Frawley, Warnock, J. McDonald and Bennell (with help from Morton) can, uninjured, form the basis of a strong defensive unit, one of those two might just be an alternative to Miller, maybe worth trying.

Have been lurking for quite a while - this is my first post. It had to be about Miller!

Tend to agree with Benny here.

I've been as critical and exasperated with BM as anyone over the years, but having watched him and watched him, gone home shaking my head, swearing, and racked my brains over him for so long, I've concluded that his greatest weakness by far is his kicking for goal. Hardly a game goes by when he doesn't shank at least one, usually two, shots at goal from 40 metres - that's the outer limit of his kicking range - or less. He gets under the ball dreadfully, has no penetration. And he can't deliver well by foot to team-mates. Hence his tendency to play a lead-up-the-field game, take the mark and hand-ball quickly and slickly to someone who might be smart enough to know BM is a one-trick pony and take it at full tilt - looks good if it comes off. Riewoldt plays a lot like this, marking near the wing, but he can deliver the ball with much more confidence and is anyway a much more intuitive and athletic player.

But, if Miller could kick a goal reliably and consistently from 40 metres, he'd possibly be a 2 goal per match player; if he could kick 40 to 45 (goals, not metres) for a season we'd be laughing. He CAN get the ball, despite what his main detractors say, and often enough within the fifty to get a couple. If only he could kick like Green.

Watts will not play CHF in game 1, he may not be in the team at all. Garland won't be playing for a while. Bate is simply not tall enough; can't 'play tall' either. Newton is a rookie and is infinitely worse than Miller; unco and he has no heart. Fitzpatrick is a season or two away, by the sound of it, same with Gawn who will surely be a ruckman. Morton is too thin, and anyway his great asset is his incredible running ability around the ground. Short of a surprise experiment like Jamar (best centre bounce ruck we have, but can take a mark and kick a goal and would be a target) or PJ or.... Martin, or.... even Rivers (!?), Miller is, by a process of fateful elimination, the best early-season option for CHF. I don't expect his kicking to improve after all these years.

Having mentioned Martin and Rivers, though.... if Frawley, Warnock, J. McDonald and Bennell (with help from Morton) can, uninjured, form the basis of a strong defensive unit, one of those two might just be an alternative to Miller, maybe worth trying.

All true Long !!! Top first post. Welcome to Demonland.

Miller will never be a world beater - but his biggest problem on the field has been between the ears IMO

Miller will never be a world beater - but his biggest problem on the field has been between the ears IMO

Since when has that been an impediment to the attainment of superstardom? How, for instance, does Fevola rank on the evolutionary scale? It's a lack of instinct BM suffers from, rather than a lack of intelligence.

Even with his obvious failings, if he could kick a goal from 40 metres - something that many of the least professorial players have managed over the years - he would go from being a complete spud to a minor asset. Forty, even 35, goals in a season would probably - based on the mythical 'law of averages' - include a couple of small to medium hauls that made the difference between winning and losing close matches. He CAN get the ball enough times to do that. If he could only kick it through the tall sticks.