don't get me started on brad miller

But his performance up back has been patchy despite a couple of notable efforts.

I think it's probably been worse than patchy - I just wanted to correct what I thought was an oft-mentioned error regarding Miller's only good game(s) in defence.

I haven't often talked about Miller before - apart from sticking up for him when some refer to him as a complete "dud" - but when we've done exercises on our team for 2010 in various threads (ie. Rpfc's & numerous others ), I can't for the life of me squeeze him into the starting 18. I don't see it as ignoring him at all, because sure enough I've had him as an emergency.

[...]

Now that reality has sunk in, I should perhaps acknowledge that Miller should be in the starting 22 - even 18. But, I must also acknowledge he is on the cusp seeing that new recruits need experience at senior level. (ie.Watts). There is a changing of the guard.

Fwiw, IIRC old55 and I had Miller in our 22 in one of the many 'best 22 in 2010' threads.

Sounds like a mates club to me. How can a player who spent a considerable amount of time in the VFL be in the leadership group? What a joke I can't believe the club can reward mediocrity like that.

Is this the same Rhino that wanted to give Miller the ass you really make me laugh. BTW it's the Melbourne Football Club not the Melbourne Social Club, I want to see terrific footballers I don't care less about their character, he's the worst player on our list and nobody's character can make up for that.

True to form and completely missing the point. While I think that Miller is expendable in the LT and believe it was line ball that he got a further year I can recognise where his qualities and strengths lie.

I can see character is not a big issue with you and understand your lack of perspective.

I think it's probably been worse than patchy - I just wanted to correct what I thought was an oft-mentioned error regarding Miller's only good game(s) in defence.

I should have said very patchy.

The real point is whilst character and integrity are wonderful personal attributes they help little when having walked across the paint and are expected to perform and contribute in a meaningful way.

Some one beat me to it...let him reinvent himself as a more than adequate and competent footballer before we worry over which end of the paddock he plays. He is ill-equiped to play down back and is too hot and cold up front. Has his moments ..some good ones but they are calender days... you can just about remember each one !!

We're talking about football competency and i cant fit him into any starting 18... he might just warm the pine...and does for sure offer depth of some sort. Hes a bit better than VFL...and a NQR at AFL if the standard is an effective finals competing team.

In the context of the threads premise we have much better options , current and emerging in the backline. We have existing and very promising prospects for the frontline.

Hes probably in the leadership group for what he does off of the pitch but on the track etc. He for all i can see has a good work ethic and for this to be admired. He tries damn hard..... we would all but surely concur....its the result that splits opinions.

0h-ten will be his last I feel ( in red and blue ) Others will come on and overtake him. He wont have the ammunition to peg them back then.

Go Dees

I can understand the frustration of some in relation to Miller. He's good at getting the ball, and certainly gets enough of it within scoring range. If he could improve his goalkicking efficiency, he's capable of 2 or 3 a game which would easily justify his place in the 22 and the frustration that's directed at him would evaporate. With his work ethic, I'd imagine that he works very hard on his set shots at training.

It's not as if he's a bad kick in general, he just seems to get the yips when shooting for goal. And that's the problem - a bad kicking action can be corrected, but the yips (in any sport) are rarely successfully overcome.

The real point is whilst character and integrity are wonderful personal attributes they help little when having walked across the paint and are expected to perform and contribute in a meaningful way.

That is interesting. I wonder why so many clubs spoke so highly of the character and integrity of Luke Ball and that despite his injuries he would be a benefit to their list as a leader of men. I note also that many potential draftees are eliminated by club recruiters due to poor character and integrity.

It seems AFL clubs view character and integrity differently to supporters.

That is interesting. I wonder why so many clubs spoke so highly of the character and integrity of Luke Ball and that despite his injuries he would be a benefit to their list as a leader of men. I note also that many potential draftees are eliminated by club recruiters due to poor character and integrity.

It seems AFL clubs view character and integrity differently to supporters.

The point is Redleg.. " intergity" and "character" wont kick a ball.. ..they dont tackle...they dont think in the clinches...they arent skill itself.. they are , yes, admirable qualities...but of what inherent attribution can you afford them when they do no harm to a scoreboard...or they give defenders those vital seconds to regroup.... or slow your own momentum causing players to become out of position..etc.

its all very nicey nicey...

and..uh...btw.... we didnt take Ball... seems other things matter more to FD's

Miller may not have the skill to be a premiership player but at the moment he is one of the few experienced big forwards we have and if he could learn to kick further he could be a good all round player. I don't think it's his accuracy that's a problem it's his lack of penetration.

I reckon he will be invaluable next year in a very inexperienced forward line that doesn't have a lot of muscle in it.

Miller may not have the skill to be a premiership player but at the moment he is one of the few experienced big forwards we have and if he could learn to kick further he could be a good all round player. I don't think it's his accuracy that's a problem it's his lack of penetration.

I reckon he will be invaluable next year in a very inexperienced forward line that doesn't have a lot of muscle in it.

spot on

The point is Redleg.. " intergity" and "character" wont kick a ball.. ..they dont tackle...they dont think in the clinches...they arent skill itself.. they are , yes, admirable qualities...but of what inherent attribution can you afford them when they do no harm to a scoreboard...or they give defenders those vital seconds to regroup.... or slow your own momentum causing players to become out of position..etc.

its all very nicey nicey...

Then why do football departments evaluate character as part of a young footballers potential?

Miller is not the most skilled. No one would argue that. But his leadership qualities and character are important elements to a senior mature bodied player that leaves little on the park at the end of the game even though sometimes the contribution may be ordinary.

I guess if character is not important critieria in a player then give me Laurence Angwin, Mitch Thorp and Daniel Chick every time.

It seems AFL clubs view character and integrity differently to supporters.

And for good reason too.

Miller may not have the skill to be a premiership player but at the moment he is one of the few experienced big forwards we have and if he could learn to kick further he could be a good all round player. I don't think it's his accuracy that's a problem it's his lack of penetration.

I reckon he will be invaluable next year in a very inexperienced forward line that doesn't have a lot of muscle in it.

I'll bet with anyone that Miller is, injuries aside, in our 22 for Round 1 2010. Players like Miller were never supposed to be the main forward target, espcially in a team with the worst midfield in the AFL. In 2010 he'll have a more developed and experienced Matthew Bate, Liam 'Say no more' Jurrah, Colin 'I've arrived, sorry I was late' Sylvia, Jack 'I will be the best forward ever soon enough' Watts, Ricky 'Can Play" Petterd around him not to mention a host of rotating and classy midfielders/forwards to kick it down his throat. A person of his character will find a way, and I think we'll all enjoy watching.

This is where many of us differ...and thats our perogative(s). I want footballers who can damage scoreboards...and not with paint or matches etc. The only reason a forward exists is to score. Thats it..dress it up as anythign you like but the game really isnt that convoluted or chess like. One team tries to score whilst stopping the other from like.. This isnt a humanitarian of the year contest..this isnt a beauty contest or who wants to be a millionaire. Players are in a totally different sort of hotseat...its the one where you do...or dont. its far more akin to trench warfare than a church social. In this vein you might actually want a few people with a bit of niggle about them... Leadership is fine.. just how many does any club really need ? we used to get by fine with one...now we apparently need a committee out there...No wonder it takes us so long to do something with the football...theres a mothers meeting happening !!

Whilst it may be a good element to have around a club, leadership etc.. it doesnt always carry over that you might want to sacrifice talent and ability for this alone. You can mentor and guide players with people who dont necessarily take to the ground come game day.

If folk are seriously suggesting this is the only reason you can justify for Millers inclusion to a team, then were stuffed.

The first and always the first criteria for selection must be the ability to play the game well. I was hopeful that Frosty might have stepped up a little last year but its always an illusion. By geez he tries...but thats not always sufficient. Id rather a guy who lacksadaisily kicks 5 than one who all but bursts a blood vessel kicking 1-4 and five kicks to no one.

Hawthorn manages quite well to get by without any Miller types...so can we

I want footballers who can damage scoreboards...and not with paint or matches etc. The only reason a forward exists is to score.

Hawthorn manages quite well to get by without any Miller types...so can we

A champion team will always beat a team of...etc and

I don't wanna be Hawthorn - who said their model is the key?

I don't wanna be Hawthorn - who said their model is the key?

not sure why you chose to add an inclusion when quoting me....none the less.

pop quiz... Hawthorn premierships...in recent times...V Melbourne ?

Theirs is not the only model but it is one that Melbourne's rebuilding has been often compared to.

This is where many of us differ...and thats our perogative(s). I want footballers who can damage scoreboards...and not with paint or matches etc. The only reason a forward exists is to score. Thats it..dress it up as anythign you like but the game really isnt that convoluted or chess like. One team tries to score whilst stopping the other from like.. This isnt a humanitarian of the year contest..this isnt a beauty contest or who wants to be a millionaire. Players are in a totally different sort of hotseat...its the one where you do...or dont. its far more akin to trench warfare than a church social. In this vein you might actually want a few people with a bit of niggle about them... Leadership is fine.. just how many does any club really need ? we used to get by fine with one...now we apparently need a committee out there...No wonder it takes us so long to do something with the football...theres a mothers meeting happening !!

Whilst it may be a good element to have around a club, leadership etc.. it doesnt always carry over that you might want to sacrifice talent and ability for this alone. You can mentor and guide players with people who dont necessarily take to the ground come game day.

If folk are seriously suggesting this is the only reason you can justify for Millers inclusion to a team, then were stuffed.

The first and always the first criteria for selection must be the ability to play the game well. I was hopeful that Frosty might have stepped up a little last year but its always an illusion. By geez he tries...but thats not always sufficient. Id rather a guy who lacksadaisily kicks 5 than one who all but bursts a blood vessel kicking 1-4 and five kicks to no one.

Hawthorn manages quite well to get by without any Miller types...so can we

You miss the point if you think the discussion its a choice between a Miller type and your match winner. It isn't. its case a recognising the attributes that Miller to where our list is at the moment. He position on the list is not a sacrifice of talent. If anything if we had not have been able to rookie Newton then Miller may well have gone as a consequence. I understand that Millers contract was a line ball. He's the 38/39th player on our list. Its soapbox melodrama to suggest we'er stuffed for retaining him.

And I am sure Hawthorn's 38/39th player on their list has all the deficiencies of a Miller.

Havent missed the point what so ever.. you and like wish to skirt or re-make it at will. On one hand your happy to acknowledge hes out there for his leadership..and on the other agree he hasnt the talent to make the first 22.

nupp..havent missed it at all

And I am sure Hawthorn's 38/39th player on their list has all the deficiencies of a Miller.

In 2008 that was Thorp...

Havent missed the point what so ever.. you and like wish to skirt or re-make it at will. On one hand your happy to acknowledge hes out there for his leadership..and on the other agree he hasnt the talent to make the first 22.

nupp..havent missed it at all

Thanks for the confirmation.

In 2008 that was Thorp...

and 2009 as well....

Thanks for the confirmation.

Havent missed the point what so ever.. you and like wish to skirt or re-make it at will. On one hand your happy to acknowledge hes out there for his leadership..and on the other agree he hasnt the talent to make the first 22.

nupp..havent missed it at all

You've missed the point that its a choice between Miller and a player like Thorp (who, by some reports, possesses leadership skills that are as poor as Miller's are good)

or a 1st year draftee picked at 66.

If I had to fill a gap in the list with a depth tall forward I know who I'd choose.

and 2009 as well....

Thanks for the confirmation.

My point was that Thorp couldn't even get on the park and is reputed to have poor leadership skills - and the Hawks won a premiership.

I think having a player like Miller in that same scenario holds us in good stead.

Now just got to work on the rest of the list...

My point was that Thorp couldn't even get on the park and is reputed to have poor leadership skills - and the Hawks won a premiership.

I think having a player like Miller in that same scenario holds us in good stead.

Now just got to work on the rest of the list...

Thanks for the clarification and that somebody did miss the point!

amazing..Im talking about miller..and miller alone.. and others introduce tom dick and harry...and ..Im the one who's missing any points ? I dont think so.. Seems many just like to feather their own arguments to suit when all goes awry !!

not sure why you chose to add an inclusion when quoting me....none the less.

That was my technological ineptitude.

The first reference was to the fact that champion teams contain a mix of players by type and ability. Sometimes a flawed player gets a premiership medallion because for all their faults they bring something the group needs. If you don't think Miller has anything to add to our group you've frankly got rocks in your head.