GWS

[Roost It 1,434]

SImple..in one instance there is actually a fotball team and culture in the local its to call home. GC have a team ..the boys are playing..getting to know each other. They will carry this through the early years of the competition proper. This Team is for real..and its real right now.You can watch them if you like. Its not AFL yet.. but they exist. Wheres WS ?? what is WS..who are WS... theres no real team playing in any real competition is there ? Its some sort of mish-mash. And they are to enter one year after GC ..and all the work thats gone into GC.. There's just no comparison.

Western Suburbs Sydney couldnt give a flying f%$# about gayball (their description !!). There is NO community backing..theres absolutely NOTHING...NADA !! only the obstinate will of Vlad and co to play some sort of team out of the middle of football nowhere.

Now do you kinda get it ?

No I don't. THe GWS team will use an identical path to the AFL as the GC has. VFL followed by AFL, draft picks, concessions, picks from existing clubs. The team will work. The whipping boys of the comp are and will remain the weak Victorian clubs, one of which is currently us!

[beelzebub 23,368]

No I don't. THe GWS team will use an identical path to the AFL as the GC has. VFL followed by AFL, draft picks, concessions, picks from existing clubs. The team will work. The whipping boys of the comp are and will remain the weak Victorian clubs, one of which is currently us!

No it isnt ... it hasnt got the underlying infrastructure and culture.. i.e its like building a house on sand... theres no sound footing !!

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

No it isnt ... it hasnt got the underlying infrastructure and culture.. i.e its like building a house on sand... theres no sound footing !!

No sadly that Sound Footing will be AFL Cash Props that may aswell be set on fire,

I was always taught to clean up my own back yard before moving somewhere else.

While there are struggling Clubs here the AFL should sure them up.

[Roost It 1,434]

No it isnt ... it hasnt got the underlying infrastructure and culture.. i.e its like building a house on sand... theres no sound footing !!

It was formed, at the earlist in April of 2008. The ground is being built and it's all brand new. What's the culture you talk about? Both clubs will have access to 100% of ground revenue, meaning a crowd of 18,000 will draw around $600,000. These are no white elephants my friend. These clubs will have money poured into them until they succeed. The old adage, Build it and they shall come rings true. No they won't pull massive crowds but it won't matter, neither do we

[beelzebub 23,368]

It was formed, at the earlist in April of 2008. The ground is being built and it's all brand new. 1) What's the culture you talk about? Both clubs will have access to 100% of ground revenue, meaning a crowd of 18,000 will draw around $600,000. These are no white elephants my friend. These clubs will have money poured into them until they succeed. 2) The old adage, Build it and they shall come rings true. No they won't pull massive crowds but it won't matter, neither do we

1) A culture of AFL .. living and breathig footy...you understand dont you there is such a climate on the Gold Coast...there upteen expat Vics and new gen that understand the game... Footy is Footy to them... No such thing exists in teh West of Sydney..nothing

2) many other Sports have thrown money hand over fist...but that doesnt always get you bums on seats...Ask teh NRL..ask RU..ask Soccer..ask Netball ask Baseball... theres a commonality amongst it all.. if it aint your [censored]...its just [censored] !! And no one wants it.. Build a filed amongst learned and converted brethren..yep..they'll come in droves..

Baseball built a you beaut stadium...in the middle of nowhere..actually Altona... might as well biult it in Colac for all the long term good it did. Money doesnt always work.. simple as !!

[Trisul 664]

Think of it this way BB.

11 +/- home games.

10k rent-a-crowd.

20$ per r-a-c per game

$ 2,200,000

~

1,000,000,000 - 2,200,000 =

$997,800,000.00 change

Edit: x10 years:

$978,000,000.00

Edited August 24, 2009 by Trident

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

Think of it this way BB.

11 +/- home games.

10k rent-a-crowd.

20$ per r-a-c per game

$ 2,200,000

~

1,000,000,000 - 2,200,000 =

$997,800,000.00 change

Edit: x10 years:

$978,000,000.00

If some of that Money is syphoned back to the Melbourne Clubs I will support it, Because i believe those Figures.

Clean Stadium deals are like a mini Bank!!!

But The Money must help the clubs down here who know longer have A HOME GROUND ADVANTAGE!! A point that i despise....

[beelzebub 23,368]

Think of it this way BB.

11 +/- home games.

10k rent-a-crowd.

20$ per r-a-c per game

$ 2,200,000

~

1,000,000,000 - 2,200,000 =

$997,800,000.00 change

Edit: x10 years:

$978,000,000.00

lets for a moment shall we forgive the costs, Ground 20-30 milion plus.est.Plus int on loans and costs for amortisation ( 25years ).. FD "X"million x how many years plus on -costs. Players.."Y" x 5 avergae years plus on-costs. deficits..DEFIDITS etc. because there are no profits whenbugger all tuen up.

Some maysee this as .."oh what does it matter, its justthe AFL, it has its ways, what canwe do" I see this as a total afornt to common sense. WhattheAFL squander now could beused to far better advantage to clubs already existing, or indeed those that dont but better placed.

Make no mistake teh AFL will be propping this up for ever...for ever..or until they fold it or merg itnad admit it was just plaindumb in the first place which of course they wont...the spinners will come to the fore.

They will of course atempt to balance it against perceived receipts via the telly. ...all tehy are doing is deluding themsleves and attempting to con therest of us.

Just for the record..this isnt some sort of personal whinge.. It just annoys mewhen such anobvious folly is sold as the panacea for such gaps. I dont for one minute think Vlad is an idiot... ...no..he's far worse

[rpfc 28,411]

We are not fighting a ground war in South East Asia.

This is a part of Australia, unenlightened as it may be, that needs to be told of the greatness of the AFL.

There should be more than 1 team in the biggest state, we have sh!tloads of cash, and it is going to happen sometime...

Why not now?

I really hope that some of you never run a business because you would run it into the ground. You cannot keep toiling the same field over and over again and expect to get more and more out of it, in fact - you'll get less.

You have to expand to thrive.

[beelzebub 23,368]

We are not fighting a ground war in South East Asia.

This is a part of Australia, unenlightened as it may be, that needs to be told of the greatness of the AFL.

There should be more than 1 team in the biggest state, we have sh!tloads of cash, and it is going to happen sometime...

Why not now?

I really hope that some of you never run a business because you would run it into the ground. You cannot keep toiling the same field over and over again and expect to get more and more out of it, in fact - you'll get less.

You have to expand to thrive.

Mate...was thinking exactly the same.....thankgod I neve need to be in business with a lot of you lot as many simply dont have any idea of due dilligence, of knowing your product, and more thepoint knowing the customers. Not everything sells to everyone.

Strangely you say the same field... never heard of population growths ,people movements etc.

What the AFL and obviously your good self seems to be doing is dismissing demographics and ridng roughshod and assuming money will make it all wel and good. It just doesnt work that way.

Yes it is a somewhat unenlightened part of the world.. worse than that its an area with absolutely no history of our great sport. Try growing anything without fertile soil... it dies !!

Sydney our Nations largest city also had no history of footy. It tried ..it failed with a start up. It needed the merger and even more truckloads of cash to prop it up. It struggles. it rates poorly ontelly up there. The memberships are alll but given away..and the following is more fickle than a lobbyist at election time. And yet the wisemen want to create another team in an area not only less fertile but totally barren ?

It will fail..and it will fail miserably. It all sounds wonderfully heroic on paper...oh lets go spread the word to the great unwashed.. we are their saviours, come to spare them from the infidels of soccer and rugby.

Just as Artic park eventually failed because it wasnt supported with infrastructure and beter development so too will this joke of GWS. Its ill conceived and blindly promoted....and most condemming its simply in the wrong place.

Just out of curousity...all you who think this will work, do you know anyone who lives up there, especially in the west ? Ask them

[MikeyJ 60]

Just out of curousity...all you who think this will work, do you know anyone who lives up there, especially in the west ? Ask them

I live in Sydney, I've been out to all the venues and I've been eating, sleeping and breathing football for the past six months.

I have no doubt that in 10 years, the Western Sydney team will be as viable as the Sydney Swans are currently. That might be damning GWS with faint praise, but there's no denying the Swans are a fixture in this city.

You cite the Swans' early days in Sydney as evidence that GWS is doomed to failure - keep in mind that today's AFL competition is a far more professional, savvy outfit than the quasi-amateur league that made the first foray north.

I and others have mentioned the truckloads of cash that will be thrown at both GC and GWS. Have no doubt that the AFL is going to prop up both these ventures until they succeed.

The resulting increase in the TV rights deal will eventually more than make up for the huge outlay of cash now. Consider the AFL's spend on these two teams an investment.

Sure, other sports have tried to venture into foreign territory without success, but none has done so with the acumen and financial muscle that the AFL currently enjoys. Every other football code in this country is in some degree of financial crisis. The AFL is swimming in cash. There has never been a better time to grow the AFL's brand.

Edited August 24, 2009 by MikeyJ

[MikeyJ 60]

A culture of AFL .. living and breathig footy...you understand dont you there is such a climate on the Gold Coast...there upteen expat Vics and new gen that understand the game... Footy is Footy to them... No such thing exists in teh West of Sydney..nothing

The target area for the GWS team is not necessarily western (Penrith, Parramatta) and south-western (Liverpool, Bankstown, Campbelltown) Sydney.

The AFL has identified large population tracts in Sydney's north-west (Castle Hill, Pennant Hills) where AFL has a significant junior presence. This area is not your typical NRL bogan heartland. These are well-off, educated families who want their kids to play a game whose culture has some semblance of respect and dignity.

Any support garnered from NRL strongholds in the west of Sydney will be a bonus. It's the NW suburbs that are the holy grail - and funnily, they're the areas in which Sydney's growth is booming.

There's no denying that this entire exercise is a risk, but it's one worth taking. I repeat, there has never been a better time for the AFL to grow its brand by pushing into new, unfamiliar territory.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Think GWS will work ??

Funny a Federal Senate Report says the opposite !!

Sydney too weak for second team

For those that seemto think Canberra cant or couldnt work , why not ? It has some proximity to The Ovens and Murray Leagues as well as the Riverina leagues.. Both of which have foundations and a fairly good following.

[beelzebub 23,368]

dont think that jsut because folk turn up to junior games it translates into people following the premier codes.. It doesnt happen in NSW for Rugby...what makes youthink it suddenly will for footy??

Victorians follow sport with much more passion and vote with their feet.. Sydney is just bloody different. It just is.. I mean..ffs we get more to a rugby state of origin game in Melbourne !! than they do in either Brisbane or Sydney !!

Edited August 24, 2009 by belzebub59

[beelzebub 23,368]

Melbourne legend and former Sydney Swans coach Ron Barassi

The AFL great said the right time to establish a second Sydney team would be when the market could accept it.

"They should put the second team in only when they think the game can carry two well-run, well-financed teams.

"They (the AFL) don't want to have two weak teams. So if you're going to weaken the Sydney Swans - and I'm not saying that because I'm a Sydney Swans person - it just wouldn't make sense to have two cot-cases up there."

Im thinking he might have some decent insight to it.

Edited August 24, 2009 by belzebub59

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Reading that article Bub makes me more [censored] off that Tassie doesn't get a team, and makes me think more of the fact all the AFL can think about is beating other codes. Expanding the brand, what a crock of [censored], i know someone who lives in Castle Hill, next time i speak to him i can't wait to post his reply.

NOONE GIVES A [censored] ABOUT THE SWANS ATM, and there is talk of them going down hill with the list they have, Paul Roo's has stated they will be rooted if they bottom out, just shows how fickle NSW supporters are. What makes you pro GWS people think it will ever work even in 10 to 20 years time? The Swans are a classic example. They play shite and the crowd just doesn't turn up. If there was plenty of interest then fine, start a team there but there is NO interest, i can't beleive how blind some people are.

[sideshowbob 0]

Think GWS will work ??

Funny a Federal Senate Report says the opposite !!

Sydney too weak for second team

For those that seemto think Canberra cant or couldnt work , why not ? It has some proximity to The Ovens and Murray Leagues as well as the Riverina leagues.. Both of which have foundations and a fairly good following.

The Senate report you linked to was called for by Tasmanian senators as a way of campaigning for a Tasmanian team. The report ignores all of the reasons given by the AFL for it's decisions.

Canberra is a very, very long way away from the Ovens and Murray. If Myrtleford (who can barely field a team) played against Canberra it would take five hours to get there. It's 3 hours from Wangaratta to finding a good parking spot at the MCG. Actually, it's probably less. None of the Ovens and Murray people would feel any connection to a Canberra team.

The attendance at our game against the Swans this year demonstrates that Canberra has no interest in an AFL team.

Now, before you say "well there would be no crowds in West Sydney either", the AFL is not basing this decision on crowds, it is doing it for growth of the game. The Canberra population is tiny, and will not grow. West Sydney's population is huge and continues to grow. You would start by budgeting for crowds of 10,000 and as the team builds success, those crowds will increase.

Ron says the team needs to be well financed. The AFL will make sure that happens.

[H_T 3,046]

NOONE GIVES A [censored] ABOUT THE SWANS ATM, and there is talk of them going down hill with the list they have, Paul Roo's has stated they will be rooted if they bottom out, just shows how fickle NSW supporters are. What makes you pro GWS people think it will ever work even in 10 to 20 years time? The Swans are a classic example. They play shite and the crowd just doesn't turn up. If there was plenty of interest then fine, start a team there but there is NO interest, i can't beleive how blind some people are.

i don't necessarily think the Swans will bottom out. I think Roos & Colless have been mentioning this point, so they highlight that the AFL should be wary of the Swans brand and they not be forgotten whilst the GWS move takes a hold.

I don't think the Swans play shite, they had over 40,000 for the Geelong game when their season was alive. They've got some good young players to take them forward. Jesse White being one shining light. Goodes is as good as ever. They'll be fine. Why so negative?

Edited August 25, 2009 by High Tower

[MikeyJ 60]

NOONE GIVES A [censored] ABOUT THE SWANS ATM, and there is talk of them going down hill with the list they have, Paul Roo's has stated they will be rooted if they bottom out, just shows how fickle NSW supporters are. What makes you pro GWS people think it will ever work even in 10 to 20 years time? The Swans are a classic example. They play shite and the crowd just doesn't turn up. If there was plenty of interest then fine, start a team there but there is NO interest, i can't beleive how blind some people are.

The Swans average slightly more than 34,000 to each of their 10 games played in Sydney this year. How is that "no interest" in AFL?

As for your query as to why "pro GWS people" think the western Sydney team will work, take a look at the Swans' early history. Now, add $110 million in AFL funding, significant draft and salary cap concessions, and the AFL's current business acumen to the mix.

I agree that the latent support for an AFL team in greater western Sydney is negligible, but I also think the team will achieve the AFL's aims - that is, it will be a boutique team that gives the code a presence in one of Australia's major growth belts.

And sideshowbob hit the nail on the head with the Senate report. It was a simply device employed by the Tasmanian senators to aid a futile push to give Tasmania an AFL team. It wasn't even wholly supported by the Tasmanian government.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Yes, fully aware thatthereport was at the bequest of the Taswegians. What compelling reasons did the AFL give.. none really other than its their bat and ball and will go play where it likes. It cited some worn out rhetoric about needing to expand to remain competive in the current context etc etc etc. It basicaly says it will...because it wants to.. There was no case brought forward to argue that it would pay, indeed it acknowledged it might take all of Linsay's trucks full of folding to 'ensure' some modicum of success.

Rons warning is that there is the distinct danger of diluting the product up there, not embellishing it. They will be giving away tickets to GWS games just so there looks like there is a crowd for the telly. They give away thousands of tickets to Swannies games too.

My original post asked the q of where is this team. Where is it. It wil have to appaear out of thin air in the shortest of times if it is to enter the comp by 2012. GC have been doing their hard yards, getting games into kids, playing a real team in leagues. Visit the GWS website team GWS and theres no one there..its all hot air and airy fairy motherhood statements etc. All smoke and mirrors. GC have been crawling, walking and now running. It all takes time and effort and people. Still cant see who or what GWS is ?? Can someone show me ?

Population = interest ? based on what.. Adelaide has two teams, so does Perth.. they both have small relative poulations but are fed with States that live and breath footy.. Thats the litmus test.. an understanding and love of the game combined with many many many years of it being indigenous to the sporting culture. Nothing like this exists for footy in the West of Sydney. To suppose that all newcomers to the area will suddenly become barking mad afl supporters has no credibility.

[MikeyJ 60]

My original post asked the q of where is this team. Where is it. It wil have to appaear out of thin air in the shortest of times if it is to enter the comp by 2012. GC have been doing their hard yards, getting games into kids, playing a real team in leagues. Visit the GWS website team GWS and theres no one there..its all hot air and airy fairy motherhood statements etc. All smoke and mirrors. GC have been crawling, walking and now running. It all takes time and effort and people. Still cant see who or what GWS is ?? Can someone show me ?

The former head of the AIS-AFL program, Alan McConnell, is the only full-time GWS employee at this stage. He's running the talent ID program. But yes, I agree that the GWS program is a long way behind where the GC program was at the same stage.

If GWS was to follow GC's path, there would be a GWS team playing in the TAC Cup in 2010, before playing in the VFL or Canberra league in 2011. Given that the licence hasn't even been granted for the GWS team, this appears a long shot.

However, Demetriou says the AFL is still committed to a 2012 start for GWS, and that the Commission will consider granting a licence by the end of the year. If McConnell is beavering away and identifying talent, it's not out of the question that GWS could field a team in an underage comp in 2010. They're cutting it fine, though.

Population = interest ? based on what.. Adelaide has two teams, so does Perth.. they both have small relative poulations but are fed with States that live and breath footy.. Thats the litmus test.. an understanding and love of the game combined with many many many years of it being indigenous to the sporting culture. Nothing like this exists for footy in the West of Sydney. To suppose that all newcomers to the area will suddenly become barking mad afl supporters has no credibility.

Few, if any, are suggesting there is going to be a sudden and mass conversion of neutrals to the GWS team.

Yes, tickets will be given away. Yes, the franchise will run at a loss for the best part of a decade. But that's why the AFL has set aside more than $100 million to support the team over the next six years.

As an aside, I suggest that the main jumper sponsorship of the GWS team will be one of the most lucrative in the competition. Boutique market, national exposure, huge media interest, large catchment.

[H_T 3,046]

What year does the new TV rights come up for bidding, 2011?

See when comparing other sports, people forget at just how much money talks and makes things happen. The NRL don't have enough as far as capital investments and infrastructure when compared to the AFL.

With the new TV rights looming and the AFL spruiking the $1Billion mark due to additional games and coverage with an expanded competition. Exposure and interest within these 14 communities of GWS with unprecedented financial backing will infiltrate. You cannot underestimate the AFL with this kind of support behind them.

[beelzebub 23,368]

The former head of the AIS-AFL program, Alan McConnell, is the only full-time GWS employee at this stage. He's running the talent ID program. But yes, I agree that the GWS program is a long way behind where the GC program was at the same stage.

If GWS was to follow GC's path, there would be a GWS team playing in the TAC Cup in 2010, before playing in the VFL or Canberra league in 2011. Given that the licence hasn't even been granted for the GWS team, this appears a long shot.

This as the heart of my primary concern regarding this whole venture. Its lagging. This leads to poor deecions leading to total stuff ups

If the AFL were to say that Western Sydney would join in say 2015 and map out their plan much along the lines that GC have followed then I could possibly believe there would be achievable outcomes within the scope that migt remain viable. For mine its al too much too fast , a bit like losing a lot of weight quickly via extreme measures.. its not sustainable..it comes back to bite you worse than ever.

I still dont understand why they dont adopt a semi partnership with the Swans and run WS as their magoos for a number of years and take a close lok at whatreal interest and following the club gets. By all means have it that it will go alone at some apointed time so anyone investing either their loyalty or indeed money will see a ditinct course . If it flounders theAFL could readdress it but it would not have entered the competition proper at that moment and no harm done to the League (AFL ) proper. If it were to show signs it could inded fly then its entering with some momentum. It would have a real chance.

The AFL needs to understand it wll getone shot at a team ( another Sydney team ) .Stuff it up and it will have done great harm to the sport in NSW.

[rpfc 28,411]

This as the heart of my primary concern regarding this whole venture. Its lagging. This leads to poor deecions leading to total stuff ups

If the AFL were to say that Western Sydney would join in say 2015 and map out their plan much along the lines that GC have followed then I could possibly believe there would be achievable outcomes within the scope that migt remain viable. For mine its al too much too fast , a bit like losing a lot of weight quickly via extreme measures.. its not sustainable..it comes back to bite you worse than ever.

I still dont understand why they dont adopt a semi partnership with the Swans and run WS as their magoos for a number of years and take a close lok at whatreal interest and following the club gets. By all means have it that it will go alone at some apointed time so anyone investing either their loyalty or indeed money will see a ditinct course . If it flounders theAFL could readdress it but it would not have entered the competition proper at that moment and no harm done to the League (AFL ) proper. If it were to show signs it could inded fly then its entering with some momentum. It would have a real chance.

The AFL needs to understand it wll getone shot at a team ( another Sydney team ) .Stuff it up and it will have done great harm to the sport in NSW.

You say that GWS18 stands for nothing at the moment and your answer is to turn it into the Swans seconds?!

That would stunt it irreparably if it ever decided to go out on its own.

That senate report, that you disingenuously mentioned (as you later note), was not a triumph for common sense but the good work of a PR firm to get these parliamentarians to deliver political book for the Tassie team's cause.

Furthermore, the AFL doesn't have to listen to them, nor should they.

The AFL is independent and I don't want to think of the parochial and nonsensical plans that MPs would put in place if they had any authority at all.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Does who asked the Senate matter ? Does it invalidate their findings ? of course not.

GWS stands for exactly nothing right at this moment,so why not grow it properly. Throwing it into the big ring at all but a moments notice is ridiculous.

Previous entrants to teh AFL came fromsome real sense of identity and purpose, yes even GC. GWS is nothing.. why not let it start with something. You say this would be irreparable damaging . On what basis ?