Yea and I admit I do sometimes get caught out inbetween on that point. I look at other sides and see players coming through, at places like Port and the Crows, in there first years and think where are our guys doing those things.... crumbs, if we had half the senior guys like those clubs our young guys would be looking like future stars too.

Something Hirdy brough up on (is it) On the Couch. I can't recall who he was talking about but he said the player is lucky to be at a club like the Bombers as if he was at a club like Melbourne he probably wouldn't develop into anything much. I nearly broke my TV but that is how we are viewed in the football world and hopefully this will change now we have a training ground like Casey and the new staff bails has brought on this year to improve the development of our young guys over a number of years.

Well said Cards. That is exactly my point. We as supporters have to make sure the Board (who we elect) will not stand for that attitude anymore. We have been a "soft" club compared to the rest for 45 years and i will not take it anymore. We should have been 5 goals up on collingwood at half time. But Senior players made Crucial errors-including our captain. They wouldn't last at other clubs.

And Why is that RR? Why are they not Good Enough & should we as supporters who love this club put up with it. Top Line Draft picks will not shine if the senior Group is ordinary Richmond are a classic similiar case to us sadly.

The chicken or the egg.... They were either never good enough when drafted or did not develop to there potential... It is all so subjective when picking kids who are 17/18 yrs of age. Whatever it is they are not good enough at present and will probably never be. It will be the next generation of players that will get us there. Will the next generation have developed fast enough to allow some of the senior guys to play finals again? Not sure. We have to put up with it WYL, who else do we have to play???

The last point is so spot on the money but at the same time are they top line players? Even if they have beentop line draft picks?

And Why is that RR? Why are they not Good Enough & should we as supporters who love this club put up with it. Top Line Draft picks will not shine if the senior Group is ordinary Richmond are a classic similiar case to us sadly.

Decisions made about the list earlier this decade. I dont think supporters are putting up with it.

We have a new Board and on field administration.

Supporters have pledged $3million to reduce debt.

MCC allliance

Casey ground usage etc etc etc.

Hawthorn had no real senior group five years ago. Neither did Geelong eight years ago.

Richmond are not a similar case to us.

Richmond are a basket case because they have got their recruiting and their coaching completely arse up and its costing them big time.

To have 5 picks in the top 20 in 2004 and be where they are is embarrassing.

4 wins (not more than 16 points) or less, you get a priority pick @ the end of Round 1.

2 years in a row & you get the priority pick, before the 1st Round.

Thanks so does that mean we would get 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 ? thanks.

We as supporters have to make sure the Board (who we elect) will not stand for that attitude anymore. We have been a "soft" club compared to the rest for 45 years and i will not take it anymore. We should have been 5 goals up on collingwood at half time. But Senior players made Crucial errors-including our captain.

I agree with your first sentence. I just dont know why posters saw it necessary to villify posters like Hazy who merely asked the questions that should be asked of any management.

I think Stynes and co have done a great job to date but they receive no favours from alleged supporters who just blindly follow them.

It was not just the senior players that made errors. They all did. Unfortunately there is no the leadership or the class there to show the way.

Well said Cards. That is exactly my point. We as supporters have to make sure the Board (who we elect) will not stand for that attitude anymore. We have been a "soft" club compared to the rest for 45 years and i will not take it anymore. We should have been 5 goals up on collingwood at half time. But Senior players made Crucial errors-including our captain. They wouldn't last at other clubs.

Are you Hazy in disguise... (who we elect) ha ha.

It is not a matter of the board putting up with it, they are there to keep us on the field. They then appoint people to run the on field side of things, they need to appoint people who will take us up the ladder again and be the club everyone (have to swear here) farken hates because we are so good and so ruthless onfield.

We have to make lemonade at present I am afraid WYL....

Thanks so does that mean we would get 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 ? thanks.

2 years in a row we get a priority pick before the "first" pick in the draft so essentially picks 1 and 2.

2 years in a row we get a priority pick before the "first" pick in the draft so essentially picks 1 and 2.

Pick 2 assumes we come last on the ladder.

If the Tigers came last then they would have pick 2.

If we came 2nd last we would have pick 3 in addition to the PP no 1.

Are you Hazy in disguise... (who we elect) ha ha.

It is not a matter of the board putting up with it, they are there to keep us on the field. They then appoint people to run the on field side of things, they need to appoint people who will take us up the ladder again and be the club everyone (have to swear here) farken hates because we are so good and so ruthless onfield.

We have to make lemonade at present I am afraid WYL....

No i a m NOT Hazy!!! I actually applaud our new Board for what they have done, But i do expect them to be Tougher on the place and always demand a certain Level of excellence.

So Stynes should walk up to our team of 18-22 year olds and berate them for not beating hardened finalists?

I'm sorry, but it seems you're painting sweeping brushes over the club that are not being backed up with rhetoric and not substance

No i a m NOT Hazy!!! I actually applaud our new Board for what they have done, But i do expect them to be Tougher on the place and always demand a certain Level of excellence.

was kidding mate.....

and yeap that is what I meant Rhino.

So Stynes should walk up to our team of 18-22 year olds and berate them for not beating hardened finalists?

I'm sorry, but it seems you're painting sweeping brushes over the club that are not being backed up with rhetoric and not substance

No our young players do not deserve a berating at all. They need to be able to sustain a high level though. Some of our senior players need a good Rocket up there Backside 45. You are too soft, & if Melbourne are still floundering in 10 years you will still come up with the old inexperienced line again.

was kidding mate.....

and yeap that is what I meant Rhino.

Still waiting to hear from Hazy after the MCC Signing!

Pick 2 assumes we come last on the ladder.

If the Tigers came last then they would have pick 2.

If we came 2nd last we would have pick 3 in addition to the PP no 1.

Thanks a lot guys.

I know the Killer cultue left 45 years ago. I am trying to work out how to get it into the club & our young players (who do have Talent) when the Culture is not there. We have to try & find it after this year as the security Blanket will not be there. Tanking for Draft Picks will not benefit this club long term.

The Killer culture, your seeking is built up generation upon generation starting from a powerfull team & tough Coaches & Administrators.

Were are all talking about the first part, building a premiership winning team. We are getting a strong off field with new footy dept & New administration.

How do you think Carltank have got where they are, & Hawthorn, how do you think they won that flag???

When the time comes to trade name players, we'll all need to be on the same page. Sacrifices must be made by all if we are to outplay the opposition & start winning those elusive flags.

The Killer culture, your seeking is built up generation upon generation starting from a powerfull team & tough Coaches & Administrators.

Were are all talking about the first part, building a premiership winning team. We are getting a strong off field with new footy dept & New administration.

How do you think Carltank have got where they are, & Hawthorn, how do you think they won that flag???

When the time comes to trade name players, we'll all need to be on the same page. Sacrifices must be made by all if we are to outplay the opposition & start winning those elusive flags.

I agree with you & it will be fascinating to see whether The Demons will get to that "Killer" Level again. This Stynes Led Board is the Best Chance since John Northey was around, & even he only got Mildly close.

No our young players do not deserve a berating at all. They need to be able to sustain a high level though. Some of our senior players need a good Rocket up there Backside 45. You are too soft, & if Melbourne are still floundering in 10 years you will still come up with the old inexperienced line again.

Perhaps I'm too soft on my boys, perhaps you're unrealistic.

But I've been fed up with the "leadership" (on and off) at our club for years mate, aside from Neita, and I feel it's now coming home to roost and I'm willing to give the young boys, who I think have a bright future, time to find their footing in this fkn tough comp.

I think this is how leadership will be sporned at our club, through a batch of similar aged players experiencing the same ups/downs/passions as each other.

Perhaps I'm too soft on my boys, perhaps you're unrealistic.

But I've been fed up with the "leadership" (on and off) at our club for years mate, aside from Neita, and I feel it's now coming home to roost and I'm willing to give the young boys, who I think have a bright future, time to find their footing in this fkn tough comp.

I think this is how leadership will be sporned at our club, through a batch of similar aged players experiencing the same ups/downs/passions as each other.

Fair Enough I am willing too accept that as it is impossible too change the past. But we as a Whole Club better get our act Together this time or we will forever be walked over.

I know you are a good supporter 45. But enough is enough of second Best. I want to see the MCG full of Red & Blue and that will only happen when this club refuses to accept being average on all levels.

I know how hard it is to win a flag (even Harder with these two new teams coming in) I Have watched nearly the whole AFL teams win a flag except my own team & it burns me up.

Whatever turned Geelong around in Round 5 2007, whatever was said. That is the type of thing we need over the next year or so.

Perhaps I'm too soft on my boys, perhaps you're unrealistic.

But I've been fed up with the "leadership" (on and off) at our club for years mate, aside from Neita, and I feel it's now coming home to roost and I'm willing to give the young boys, who I think have a bright future, time to find their footing in this fkn tough comp.

I think this is how leadership will be sporned at our club, through a batch of similar aged players experiencing the same ups/downs/passions as each other.

The leadership issue IMO faltered at some stage when Balmey was coaching & onwards through the recent administrations.

In recent times we had players running around getting games on reputation, without chasing or putting the body in harms way for the club, & they were let get away with it, still playing the next week. What do we all think that tells the recruits, take the money, train well & all will be good.

Barassi rectified this stuff we are trying to fix now, & while he didn't have a lot to show in terms of ladder position, he & his team created the change of attitude from amateurish to professional, as well as many hard years changing the personnell on field without the help of a draft system.

This set up the chain of events that saw Johnny Northey together with a young Recruiter by name of Schwabby, get recruits such as Spalding, Dean, etc to the Dees & achieve some success.

I'm sure the two of you would have had a go at Carlton for taking against us in Round 22 of 2007*. But you seem to be at peace with it when it benefits us.

*Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

The only things that disgusted me about that Carlton game was the fact that their supporters were cheering when they missed goals, that some of their players seemed to deliberately miss easy set shots, and that they left TJ on his own for the entire game (although that may have helped us trade him, so thanks Carlton :D).

I would hate for us to do that, and if I ever went to a game where my own supporters were cheering AGAINST their team, I would be extremely upset. However, some of the list management suggestions I wrote earlier, are very different to actively trying to coach a loss on game day.

At the end of the day I didn't care that they left out some of their better players and started sending them off for surgeries earlier than usual (we did and should do the same again if necessary!), that was simply good strategic management.

But they could have beaten us that day, and the players themselves didn't try to do that. At the moment we are simply not good enough to beat most teams in the competition, but I would still like our players to play to the best of their ability every single week, regardless of how many wins we have on the board or who our opposition is.

It's up to the match committee, list managers and coaching staff to decide how we can best utilise our list to reduce our chance of winning PRIOR TO THE MATCH!

Of course given that we play Carlton and St Kilda in Round 21 and 22, it seems highly unlikely we'll have to come up with strategies to become more beatable

The only things that disgusted me about that Carlton game was the fact that their supporters were cheering when they missed goals, that some of their players seemed to deliberately miss easy set shots, and that they left TJ on his own for the entire game (although that may have helped us trade him, so thanks Carlton :D).

I would hate for us to do that, and if I ever went to a game where my own supporters were cheering AGAINST their team, I would be extremely upset. However, some of the list management suggestions I wrote earlier, are very different to actively trying to coach a loss on game day.

At the end of the day I didn't care that they left out some of their better players and started sending them off for surgeries earlier than usual (we did and should do the same again if necessary!), that was simply good strategic management.

But they could have beaten us that day, and the players themselves didn't try to do that. At the moment we are simply not good enough to beat most teams in the competition, but I would still like our players to play to the best of their ability every single week, regardless of how many wins we have on the board or who our opposition is.

It's up to the match committee, list managers and coaching staff to decide how we can best utilise our list to reduce our chance of winning PRIOR TO THE MATCH!

Of course given that we play Carlton and St Kilda in Round 21 and 22, it seems highly unlikely we'll have to come up with strategies to become more beatable

The worst thing About Carlton's Tanking in 2007 was that the AFL refused to believe it was Happening. Made me Sick to the Core as if Vlad was saying "Yes the League needs a strong Carlton so we won't comment or adjust any criteria" Carlton have cheated since around 1965.i

Still waiting to hear from Hazy after the MCC Signing!

Maybe we should move on and forget about it... He said his piece and it is done and dusted. I am sure he is fully behind the club in the future plans.

..........BTW, we have not had a killer culture at MFC for 45 years.

Can't quite agree with that RR. While still under resourced in the late 80's, early 90's, we had a core group of players who left a lot of blood out on the park for the team. Lyon, Spalding, Viney, Stynes and B Lovett to name a few. We played proud and with a lot of grunt.

I reckon 1990 could have been our year. Certainly I think we could have given the filth a run for their money, better than Essendon did, if it was not for falling for the 3 card trick against WC in the earlier final.

Our motto this year is "Bringing Back the Demon". Accepting the young list we have and regardless of whether the older guys are even suspect B graders, I guess a lot of us just want to see that spirit instilled sooner rather than later, and while more top draft picks are of course welcome, for the spirit of the club - its heart and soul - I just don't want us to be relying on that as our safety net.

We are a lot further back in the yes of the public, than almost any other AFL club. We need to get some respect back and soon in my view.

Can't quite agree with that RR. While still under resourced in the late 80's, early 90's, we had a core group of players who left a lot of blood out on the park for the team. Lyon, Spalding, Viney, Stynes and B Lovett to name a few. We played proud and with a lot of grunt.

I reckon 1990 could have been our year. Certainly I think we could have given the filth a run for their money, better than Essendon did, if it was not for falling for the 3 card trick against WC in the earlier final.

Our motto this year is "Bringing Back the Demon". Accepting the young list we have and regardless of whether the older guys are even suspect B graders, I guess a lot of us just want to see that spirit instilled sooner rather than later, and while more top draft picks are of course welcome, for the spirit of the club - its heart and soul - I just don't want us to be relying on that as our safety net.

We are a lot further back in the yes of the public, than almost any other AFL club. We need to get some respect back and soon in my view.

The nucleus of that side came from some good recruiting in the mid 80s

However the players you revered in that period came up short when it counted most. I agree 1990 was our year and we blew it. The fact we weren't there in the GF showed we weren't good enough. We did not have the killer instinct when it counted.

You have to understand that our senior list is shot. We dont have a Stynes, Lyon, Viney or Lovett to instil, lead and guide the team on the ground. All we have are young players and the maturation of those young player will take time. We still need to add some talent to the list to supplement what we have. How else do you build a success team unless you have quality draft picks??? Its not a safety net its reality.

At the moment we are simply not good enough to beat most teams in the competition, but I would still like our players to play to the best of their ability every single week, regardless of how many wins we have on the board or who our opposition is.

My thoughts precisely.