Correct Some of our older players don't play out a full game & with that attitude we will always be as successful as we have been in the last 45 years. Some of our older players are being over paid maybe & have been for a while.

I agree also with your Essendon point. No reason why one of our 18 year olds cannot be BOG at some stage.

David Zaharkis this weeks NAB Rising nominee. (Essendon). He and Blease were my last years picks 17 and 19. Happy with Strauss.

Iv, I think you should read the context that was replying to.

It's stated that injuries cannot be used as an excuse, yet they can be used as an excuse for other teams?

Aaron Davey and Jared Rivers had pretty bloody good first seasons too...oh wait, they had better senior players around them playing in a competitive team.

Our team is kids playing without men.

Our boys did show that they can stick it with a good side, you should take heart from that, the fact we couldn't sustain it points to the fact that a ) they're a much better side than we are and b ) we have no senior players that stand up and look after the younger boys/lead the team...save for Brad Green and Junior who is well and truly passed it unfortunately.

Hodge, Franklin and Roughhead's confidence don't seem too affected by their first few years of footy. Stop being so melodramatic boys

Lol, Cyril Rioli played a blinder as an 18 year old, so surely a team of 18 year olds would collectively all play blinders.

Absolutely naive point of view. I'm sure if our rookies were in a team that contained Hodge, Mitchell, Croad, Bateman, Franklin Roughead Sewell etc, they'd play pretty well too.

Morton has started very well, as has Martin, Garland in his 3rd year, Jetta/Bennel have looked good in pieces. It's not helping us at the moment because we have no leaders.

You're not supporting the team by instigating this theory that we're losing because we're not "putting in" or trying hard enough.

And I suppose Hawthorn's injuries have nothing to do with their 0-2 start...

What do you mean we have no leaders?? That is a true Cop Out. We have many players who played september action & still a few who played in the 2000 GF. These Guys should be doing More. They are well paid. A team Fades out because it is either not Fit or drops the head. Either of these situations should never be accepted no matter where the list management is at.

WYL, you're serving my point.

These same "leaders" that have had "september action" are the same ones who were meekly bundled out in 04, 05 and in the semi against Freo in 06. You say we have leaders and then point at how the older players should do more. Oddly.A team of kids will drop their head when there are no players taking leadership on field - and when they don't have the skill to maintain their attack.

WYL, you're serving my point.

These same "leaders" that have had "september action" are the same ones who were meekly bundled out in 04, 05 and in the semi against Freo in 06. You say we have leaders and then point at how the older players should do more. Oddly.A team of kids will drop their head when there are no players taking leadership on field - and when they don't have the skill to maintain their attack.

Yes Yes But it wasn't Junior or Brad Green who bowed out Meekly. Even Miller in that final against Freo Played his Heart out. Watching Jolly on Saturday night was depressing-i concede we have NO Ruckman, & a few Draft Picks are not going to solve that. Mark Riley put a nail in our Coffin when he won that last Game against Carlton & then went to work for them, He shall pay for that.

So you would advocate losing?

Look at Essendon on Sunday. Zaharakis plays his first game and is best on ground and Quinn, who has barely touched an Aussie rules football was more than servicable. I believe we need to take similar risks with some of our picks.

We played 4 debutants in the first two rounds.

We have elevated three rookies in the past two years.

We have taken a potential talent from the further outreaches of Australia who needs to develop both on the ground and off the ground to survive let alone succeed in AFL.

We played an ex- basketballer we picked up via Sandy as PSD. He has played 10 games.

We have a No 4 draft pick from last year that has been blooded in one of the most feeble midfields to learn his craft.

We would have played another player with only 1 game played last year if not for back injury.

We have 2 defenders (Frawley and Garland) who have had about 20 games each put into key positions.

We would have been playing a player off the rookie list from last year except his hamstring is shot.

We are about to play a small forward Maric with sharp disposal skills who is return from hip injury for his sixth game.

In each of those games these young players have had to operate with little leadership around them, no on field stars or established players to often take the leading defender or forward.

If all fit then our best 22 would contain at least half the side who have either less than 3 years or 20 games experience.

How many more "risks" can we possibly take?

Both Zakaharis and Rioli have debuted with both strong leadership and within winning sides. I wonder how they would fare being thrust into unsupported roles within MFC.

I, for one, am just glad we were able to establish a winning culture through this match

Imagine how much worse we'd be today had we lost that match... my god, we might even be sitting on zero wins right now

That is quite true, even though I'm for trying to win as many games as we can.

I'm sure the two of you would have had a go at Carlton for taking against us in Round 22 of 2007*. But you seem to be at peace with it when it benefits us.

*Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

Yes Yes But it wasn't Junior or Brad Green who bowed out Meekly. Even Miller in that final against Freo Played his Heart out. Watching Jolly on Saturday night was depressing-i concede we have NO Ruckman, & a few Draft Picks are not going to solve that. Mark Riley put a nail in our Coffin when he won that last Game against Carlton & then went to work for them, He shall pay for that.

None of our senior players have any significant impact or influence on matches. In fact Junior struggles to be remotely competitive at this level. A number of senior players cant get on the track (eg Whelan) and even then Wheels is a shadow of the player he was.

If we dont access the talent through the draft then how do we improve?

Any team that sports a 3rd ranked ruckman as the leading man at the centre bounce is going to get thumped? Renouf made Jolly look better than he is. Likewise PJ made Fraser look the same.

So you would advocate losing?

Never even though the AFL actually Promote it. If i Had my Way the Top draft Picks would be given to the 9th placed Team to always Promote winning.

Bottom teams should should never pay any where near the 100% salary Cap. You want to earn big Coin then show this club Results.

Their were mistakes made by senior players in the 1st Half Last that are just not acceptable & they are some of the main reasons we will continue to get Beaten not the young Kids. One Positive..was great to see no 27 playing a solid game.

I knew what was happening and accepted it, why would I have a go at them when I know it makes sense?

Now I may have called them cheating scum, but surely you can't limit that to tanking? Not to mention the fact that this is footy, I'd be at ease if i change my attitude when something happens to one team compared to when it happens to mine

WYL, you don't ever condone losing, yet Riley shall "pay" for winning that game against Carlton....

None of our senior players have any significant impact or influence on matches. In fact Junior struggles to be remotely competitive at this level. A number of senior players cant get on the track (eg Whelan) and even then Wheels is a shadow of the player he was.

If we dont access the talent through the draft then how do we improve?

Any team that sports a 3rd ranked ruckman as the leading man at the centre bounce is going to get thumped? Renouf made Jolly look better than he is. Likewise PJ made Fraser look the same.

I agree RR the problem is that when we get that new Talent we never take them to their absolute Peak of ability because we no longer possess that killer culture we once had.

I fear it may have been a mistake to make junior Capt this year. An assistant Coaching Role may have been a wiser choice. Time will tell.

What do you mean we have no leaders?? That is a true Cop Out. We have many players who played september action & still a few who played in the 2000 GF. These Guys should be doing More. They are well paid. A team Fades out because it is either not Fit or drops the head. Either of these situations should never be accepted no matter where the list management is at.

The best captain I have seen at MFC was Robert Flower. He did not play finals football until his last three games.

Arguably the best captain the Swans produced Bob Skilton played his first finals match in his last game.

You clearly dont understand what leadership is about.

Leadership has revolved around one player at MFC (Neitz) for too long and the lack of on field leaders has been a problem at MFC for the last 6 years at least.

We played 4 debutants in the first two rounds.

We have elevated three rookies in the past two years.

We have taken a potential talent from the further outreaches of Australia who needs to develop both on the ground and off the ground to survive let alone succeed in AFL.

We played an ex- basketballer we picked up via Sandy as PSD. He has played 10 games.

We have a No 4 draft pick from last year that has been blooded in one of the most feeble midfields to learn his craft.

We would have played another player with only 1 game played last year if not for back injury.

We have 2 defenders (Frawley and Garland) who have had about 20 games each put into key positions.

We would have been playing a player off the rookie list from last year except his hamstring is shot.

We are about to play a small forward Maric with sharp disposal skills who is return from hip injury for his sixth game.

In each of those games these young players have had to operate with little leadership around them, no on field stars or established players to often take the leading defender or forward.

If all fit then our best 22 would contain at least half the side who have either less than 3 years or 20 games experience.

How many more "risks" can we possibly take?

Both Zakaharis and Rioli have debuted with both strong leadership and within winning sides. I wonder how they would fare being thrust into unsupported roles within MFC.

I must admint this is something I keep jumping between... Watching other sides "find" these young players and I think where are ours..... far out they are all over the field. As Blight mentioned during the coverage we are sporting close to the youngest defense ever put on the park!

We have a lack of senior, mid level players carrying the load so our youngsters are doing it all and need more time to develop, unfortunately a lot more time.

I agree RR the problem is that when we get that new Talent we never take them to their absolute Peak of ability because we no longer possess that killer culture we once had.

I fear it may have been a mistake to make junior Capt this year. An assistant Coaching Role may have been a wiser choice. Time will tell.

Its more than that. Under the previous administration we had no development coaches. I have already mentioned the lack of leadership.

The group of young players we have will have to be developed and nurtured without the benefit of strong leaders on the player and within a playing culture that is evolving but well short of where it must be.

We have to be patient with the young group and use our resources to supplement these young players with further talent.

BTW, we have not had a killer culture at MFC for 45 years.

Could someone please clarify for me and others.

Some posters on here are stating that if we finnish last with less than 5 wins we get picks 1 and 2.

Last year we got 1,17 and 18.

Witch is it thanks.

4 wins (not more than 16 points) or less, you get a priority pick @ the end of Round 1.

2 years in a row & you get the priority pick, before the 1st Round.

The best captain I have seen at MFC was Robert Flower. He did not play finals football until his last three games.

Arguably the best captain the Swans produced Bob Skilton played his first finals match in his last game.

You clearly dont understand what leadership is about.

Leadership has revolved around one player at MFC (Neitz) for too long and the lack of on field leaders has been a problem at MFC for the last 6 years at least.

I understand Leadership & i know we haven't Had it in the centre of the ground for a while, but i still expect more from the senior players who are representing the club right now. They are on good coin & owe the club 120 minutes each week.

I must admint this is something I keep jumping between... Watching other sides "find" these young players and I think where are ours..... far out they are all over the field. As Blight mentioned during the coverage we are sporting close to the youngest defense ever put on the park!

We have a lack of senior, mid level players carrying the load so our youngsters are doing it all and need more time to develop, unfortunately a lot more time.

People just dont realise the load these young players are taking on.

They are also doing at a Club that until this year did not have a ground to train on that had goal posts on it or with ready access to a weights room. Last year they trained at Trinity then had to drive for nearly an hour to do weights in a sh!##y little underesourced weights room at the Junction Oval.

We have a lack of quality senior mid level players. Furthermore we have no stars, no A graders and few if any B graders.

I understand Leadership & i know we haven't Had it in the centre of the ground for a while, but i still expect more from the senior players who are representing the club right now. .

Your going to be disappointed more often going forward then.

The issue is that none of the senior group has the capacity to influence a game. Many of them try their guts out like Green and Miller. They are not good enough to do that.

Its more than that. Under the previous administration we had no development coaches. I have already mentioned the lack of leadership.

The group of young players we have will have to be developed and nurtured without the benefit of strong leaders on the player and within a playing culture that is evolving but well short of where it must be.

We have to be patient with the young group and use our resources to supplement these young players with further talent.

BTW, we have not had a killer culture at MFC for 45 years.

I know the Killer cultue left 45 years ago. I am trying to work out how to get it into the club & our young players (who do have Talent) when the Culture is not there. We have to try & find it after this year as the security Blanket will not be there. Tanking for Draft Picks will not benefit this club long term.

This is another point WYL, we're not taking at the moment, we're simply not good enough. We didn't tank last year either

Your going to be disappointed more often going forward then.

The issue is that none of the senior group has the capacity to influence a game. Many of them try their guts out like Green and Miller. They are not good enough to do that.

And Why is that RR? Why are they not Good Enough & should we as supporters who love this club put up with it. Top Line Draft picks will not shine if the senior Group is ordinary Richmond are a classic similiar case to us sadly.

Tanking for Draft Picks will not benefit this club long term.

I dont think the Coach is at this point. If, hypothetically we were 3 wins from 5 games then we should be seeing what we could achieve.

However if we were 3 wins from 15 games we would be nuts to end up winning more than 4 games for the year.

We need to supplement the existing crop of youngsters with another group of talented players.

This is another point WYL, we're not taking at the moment, we're simply not good enough. We didn't tank last year either

I Know that but the Modern Football Public Accept Tanking. The AFL Reward Mediocraty which i think is fundamentally wrong

People just dont realise the load these young players are taking on.

They are also doing at a Club that until this year did not have a ground to train on that had goal posts on it or with ready access to a weights room. Last year they trained at Trinity then had to drive for nearly an hour to do weights in a sh!##y little underesourced weights room at the Junction Oval.

We have a lack of quality senior mid level players. Furthermore we have no stars, no A graders and few if any B graders.

Yea and I admit I do sometimes get caught out inbetween on that point. I look at other sides and see players coming through, at places like Port and the Crows, in there first years and think where are our guys doing those things.... crumbs, if we had half the senior guys like those clubs our young guys would be looking like future stars too.

Something Hirdy brough up on (is it) On the Couch. I can't recall who he was talking about but he said the player is lucky to be at a club like the Bombers as if he was at a club like Melbourne he probably wouldn't develop into anything much. I nearly broke my TV but that is how we are viewed in the football world and hopefully this will change now we have a training ground like Casey and the new staff bails has brought on this year to improve the development of our young guys over a number of years.