How can you argue a team's winning culture can be linked to supporter's confidence (certainty) that they will win in any given week.

What club has this magical "winning culture" that you speak of?

A lot of people think the Kangas have it. Not me. They lose winnable games far too easily for that. The truth is that no team nowadays really has a 'winning' or 'losing' culture. Some teams are better than other, sure, but Geelong's winning culture will fade very quickly in a few years. This will probably coincide with the resurgence of the good old Carlton arrogance that inexplicably went missing in the past 6 or so years.

A lot of people think the Kangas have it. Not me. They lose winnable games far too easily for that. The truth is that no team nowadays really has a 'winning' or 'losing' culture. Some teams are better than other, sure, but Geelong's winning culture will fade very quickly in a few years. This will probably coincide with the resurgence of the good old Carlton arrogance that inexplicably went missing in the past 6 or so years.

Don't agree. Winning Cultures do exist. Clubs like Carlton & Hawthorn Drop down yes, but they bounce back up quickly & Strongly. They do not accept Losing-when it happens they address it.

Our up down up down seasons would not be tolerated at the Top Clubs. We must get Tougher-The Whole Club.

Clubs like Carlton bounced back incredibly strongly. 6 years.

A "winning culture" does not mean that a team doesn't lose games it shouldn't.

Hawthorn, a team with a "winning culture," today for instance. How you can even use Carlton and Hawthorn when defending a need for a "winning culture" is absurd when both teams purposely bottomed out to help speed up the process of winning games of footy.

If anything, the Dees wanted to win too much during the 04-07 period and we are paying the price of it now

Don't agree. Winning Cultures do exist. Clubs like Carlton & Hawthorn Drop down yes, but they bounce back up quickly & Strongly. They do not accept Losing-when it happens they address it.

Our up down up down seasons would not be tolerated at the Top Clubs. We must get Tougher-The Whole Club.

Winning cultures only exist in teams that are winning a lot at the time. Hawthorn, Geelong, the Bulldogs, Sydney; all these teams have winning cultures now, but will soon become rabbles again, while Melbourne, West Coast, Carlton and others will soon start winning again. Richmond, a so-called Top Club, was abysmal a few years ago, and so was Carlton. Bad teams create an illusion of bad culture, and vice versa.

If anything, the Dees wanted to win too much during the 04-07 period and we are paying the price of it now

So the Dees wanted to win too much....is that a crime? It was our window in that period, particularly '04-'06. Even though there was a lock on the window which faltered towards the end of each of those seasons....

Paying the price? Yes.

The writing was on the wall at the end of 2006. Changes needed to be made to the list, as it turned out, Daniher held on too long into 2007. DB and Co. turned the list over on the back of a few retirements, the same will happen this year. A 'new dawn' awaits for us diehards next season.

The players don't tank. it's too risky with injury. The Clubs sure do though....

...Worsfold Stinks anyway. He Knew about that Drug Culture & did nothing about it...His time will come.

Absolutely right with both statements 'why you little'.

Don't agree. Winning Cultures do exist. Clubs like Carlton & Hawthorn Drop down yes, but they bounce back up quickly & Strongly. They do not accept Losing-when it happens they address it.

Our up down up down seasons would not be tolerated at the Top Clubs. We must get Tougher-The Whole Club.

Again, I agree.

These days winning culture clashes when the need to reinvigorate the playing list arises, via a flawed drafting methodology that rewards finishing in the bottom area of the ladder and with no more than 4 wins.

The argument that winning culture and drafting pragmatism is mutually exclusive is, IMO, also flawed. Some clubs are able to adopt each when necessary.

Players play to win, but clubs use list management techniques toward the end of a season to win the best drafting position. Does it adversely affect winning culture? Perhaps if your club crosses the line and asks it’s players to lay down. I’m not certain this happens though.

But you can make your own decision based on Carlton’s year this year, and we’ll see about WCE next year.

I, for one, want MFC to have a winning culture, and I want the best draft position.

You know what is a discrace is that so many people here said what a boring game a game we would always win. Crowd was always going to be small. did anyone help regarding the crowd I was the with a a Brisbane supporter I draged along thought if everyone did it we just might make it a decent crowd. Im sorry I didnt read all the posts but the few I read just annoyed me to say the least. I meet this kid on the train there die hard supporter knew more than me and he was just stoked he was able to go on sat he was by himself just a great little supporter. as for the game we would always win I can tell you I was there supporting making noise every goal we kicked and bad decision we got and I was there till the song was played for the last time

You know what is a discrace is that so many people here said what a boring game a game we would always win. Crowd was always going to be small. did anyone help regarding the crowd I was the with a a Brisbane supporter I draged along thought if everyone did it we just might make it a decent crowd. Im sorry I didnt read all the posts but the few I read just annoyed me to say the least. I meet this kid on the train there die hard supporter knew more than me and he was just stoked he was able to go on sat he was by himself just a great little supporter. as for the game we would always win I can tell you I was there supporting making noise every goal we kicked and bad decision we got and I was there till the song was played for the last time

Just like me. See, this is the kind of supporter I'm talking about. One who is a huge Demon fan but more than that, loves the game enough not to ruin it complaining about perceived corruption.

Just like me. See, this is the kind of supporter I'm talking about. One who is a huge Demon fan but more than that, loves the game enough not to ruin it complaining about perceived corruption.

NO !! ..I mean.. how could anyone link West Coast and anything less than above board !!!

NO !! ..I mean.. how could anyone link West Coast and anything less than above board !!!

Sarcasm anyone?

I'm quite sick of hearing this winning culture argument. Give me some detail as to how it works. I'm not expecting anything as the argument holds little merit.

That's cause it holds no merit.

I mean seriously how can anyone think winning 2 meaningless games can suddenly create a winning culture after 16+ rounds of losing.

We even had the same crap tossed up b4 the 2 Carlton games last year.

Winning culture....Actually thank god we won that game and instilled that winning culture or else we wouldn't have had our 3 wins this year.

Winning culture....Actually thank god we won that game (Carlton, Round 22, 2007) and instilled that winning culture or else we wouldn't have had our 3 wins this year.

Yes it could of been really ugly otherwise...

That's cause it holds no merit.

I mean seriously how can anyone think winning 2 meaningless games can suddenly create a winning culture after 16+ rounds of losing.

We even had the same crap tossed up b4 the 2 Carlton games last year.

Winning culture....Actually thank god we won that game and instilled that winning culture or else we wouldn't have had our 3 wins this year.

Get out of here with that 'common sense' and 'logic'. You're not welcome. As a mindless gumby I insist that you desist with with this heresy against the proud MFC.

well boys and girls[all those that enjoy losing]. It has been often been said that the players dont tank, so that leaves only one guilty party-the selection panel.

Right so lets look at that statement and not just take it as the 11 commandment.

Players are no more stupid than the rest of us and they would know if the selection panel tanked by withdrawing players for the next game. A football club is a small place and you cant fool players who live, train and drink with their team mates.

e.g. say we dropped Green [hamstring tightness] Morton [ill] for next weeks game golly gee the rest of the players wont know we arse TANKING.

Now imagine a MFC coach going up to e.g. Maric and telling him we need more out of you for this week. Can you imagine the conflict in this guys head, telling him to put in but not backing him up with the best possible team to get the job done.

Players need confidence in their coaching staff and Tanking selection dosnt instill that, just the opposite.

Younger players need role models and to dish up lies[and thats what it is] dosnt give you a very good culture.

YOU WANT A WINNING NEVER SAY DIE CULTURE YOU DONT GET THAT BY LAYING DOWN EITHER ON OR OFF THE FIELD!

I have had my say on this subject before but this will be my last on it, I just dont like talking to wantabe LOSERS.

Why winning culture and list pragmatism are not mutually exclusive;

The opposing camps to this debate infer each are not fit and supportive MFC patrons. I think both camps are good supporters. They seem not to see the connection.

Winning Culture is an intangible which can’t easily be defined. It is an attribute, an attitude, pervading the club that loss is unacceptable. It is not something 1, 2, or 3 winning games produces. It is always the result of a single minded off-field force and the strong and shared on-field leadership, talent, and commitment to each other.

As people leave the club they generally are replaced by like minded individuals. This may sometimes look like cronyism but is generally what precedes winning culture. It limits individual agendas and maintains focus.

The pervasiveness of winning culture extends into analysis of the future. Every possible advantage will be taken to ensure future success. If success is not forthcoming, changes will be made. If flawed rules are in place, they will be manipulated.

Decisions will be made today to ensure long term success; for example, corrective surgery prior to seasons end allows those players back in to preseason training and allows further development of new players. Older or retiring players may make room for the development of new players.

A loss today to ensure long term success is insignificant. A ladder position lost for potential future success by way of drafting quality cattle will be accepted by the club governors and players alike.

The players on the paddock will still play to win and develop the bond for success. Their pride and integrity remain intact, win or lose. They understand the business of footy. They get paid big money.

Remaining too long at the bottom due to poor decision making will kill off winning desire, patronage and sponsors. Hawthorn, Carlton and WCE are examples of winning culture driving list pragmatism and that is why they will bounce back.

This is business now. This is success. This is Winning Culture.

Why winning culture and list pragmatism are not mutually exclusive;

...

This is business now. This is success. This is Winning Culture.

Quality, quality post Dees Dayz. I feel mildy remorseful about potting your grammar now (I think it was you), because this just about sums it up, superbly, from a logical, contemporary point of view. Most of the nuffies and dinosaurs will never understand the evolution of football. Thankfully they will never have any input into the running of the club.