As a matter of interest, who did Freo take with the #2 pick we traded to them in the White deal ?

They took Longmuir in 98...

Then in 99 they had picks 2, 4 and 5... and took Hasleby, Pavlich and Leigh Brown...

That's a good example... They got 1 god player from 4 there. Longmuir did nuthin', Hasleby is talented but has problems with his body, Leigh Brown is just going at the Roos and is in and out of the side.

Fremantle's trading and recruiting record is the stuff of legend...

Cheers DD.

I think White was certainly worth the punt.

Not sure how to post a link

But go to - www.thedrafter.net/all_drafts/index.asp

It gives a performance ranking on all clubs since '98.

Hope it helps with a subject that has too many grey areas.

Cheers DeeMfc

Is a higher number/rating better or worse? If better, we rank 3rd overall. (And Richmond last.)

Jarka you were the one who said "Yeah, gee thanks CAC for the list of absolute champions we currently have".

I was responding to that and trying to help you understand that our lack of champions is not the fault of one person. Thankfully it seems you've finally caught on ("Was he soley responsible? Hell no, obviously) so we may get a more thoughtful analysis from you if this topic come up again.

It shows you're learning. Well done and keep up the good work.

What a complete bore you are, I've never stated that CAC is solely responsible for our current plight, and as a self confessed obsessed fan of my opinions you of all people should know this. It is true that I was one of the first to question CAC's god like status on demonland.com, but I've never been one of the masses who are impressed by a handful of visits.

That post was directed at someone who made the comment that we have about a dozen guns on our list and using that to prove that CAC's record was fantastic, but of course you could take any comment out of context in a bid to back up your argument.

You're right, I'm learning the whole time. I expect never to stop learning throughout my entire life. For example over the last 24 hours I've learnt that you're one of my biggest fans, also you post about topics that you don't fully understand. I guess that's the difference between someone who accepts that he'll never stop learning and someone who thinks that they know everything.

Did CAC select Trav? Didn't he join our recruiters from 98 onwards? I've always understood Trav was the last year BEFORE CAC took over. Happy to be corrected by whoever has the info.

Morton?!! You're expecting Morton to have an effect on CAC's last ten years?!! He never even played a game while CAC was at the club?

And don't quote Jeff White at me. He was traded for, that's not the same as bottoming out. I'm talking about the difference between getting rid of quality picks and players you already have on your list versus getting a #1 pick without having to give anything up. There's a huge difference...

But then I wouldn't expect you to answer any of my points they way they were constructed.

This discussion has clearly sailed way over your head. And who cares anymore? Demonland is starting to get inundated with this crap lately... abuse of former administrators and players for our currently bad on-field performance. But you keep flying the flag Jarka... It's noble work you're doing.

Yeah right, your response clearly shows that you can't grasp basic concepts, but that's ok, I'm happy for you to continue throughout your whole life clinging onto the (perceived) knowledge that if we had of just held onto Daniher and CAC for maybe another couple of decades (once they all matured, who they are I have no idea) we may be lucky enough to sneak into the top 8 again and chance a couple of flukey finals wins. Perhaps we might have even made another grand final and who knows, perhaps we could better our last effort of a record losing margin?

I'm happy though that the club has decided to go down another track.

Did CAC select Trav? Didn't he join our recruiters from 98 onwards?

Yes. He started in '97.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing... but to think we could have had one J. Brown makes you cry !! llol

Hindsight is a beautiful thing... but to think we could have had one J. Brown makes you cry !! llol

We couldn't of though, he was a father son pick via Fitzroy.

Actually, with the Gold Coast and boganville clubs being formed, looks like there might be a resurgence of zone selections, with ridiculous priviliedges, likely contending for premierships.

But i'll be damned if want my club involved in that. <_<

We couldn't of though, he was a father son pick via Fitzroy.

ahh thankyou glasshopper..indeed true..... phew !! feel better now ( marginally )

Of about 80 picks a year, one (obviously) is pick one.

22 players a year play in a premiership. Which, eventually, works out to one in four (22 in 80) players, putting aside the statistical problems of repeats.

So, 2 number 1 draft picks to play in premierships would probably be a little low on the scale, over a decade and a half. Expecially considering the number of later picks which wouldn't have even played in a game, you'd expect a top pick to be more likely, rather than less. Of course, it's also an argument for 'crap teams actually stay crap'. This applies to Richmond and Carlton only. Obviously not Melbourne.

I wonder which pick has played in the mos premiershipst? We should trade players to get as many as possible of that pick !!

What I was getting at is that draft picks won't get you premierships but rather the players you pick with them, and the players around them.

I think Des Headland is a pretty good example of that. Pick #1 went to Brisbane, played in a premiership then went to an average side in Fremantle and has done nothing since.

Same with Judd. Drafted to a young West Coast list on the way back up then helped by Cox/Gardiner, Cousins, Kerr, Braun, Fletcher, Embley etc to a Brownlow and Premiership. Now at an average side in Carlton and doesn't look like winning one of either for at least the next few years

What I was getting at is that draft picks won't get you premierships but rather the players you pick with them, and the players around them.

I think Des Headland is a pretty good example of that. Pick #1 went to Brisbane, played in a premiership then went to an average side in Fremantle and has done nothing since.

Same with Judd. Drafted to a young West Coast list on the way back up then helped by Cox/Gardiner, Cousins, Kerr, Braun, Fletcher, Embley etc to a Brownlow and Premiership. Now at an average side in Carlton and doesn't look like winning one of either for at least the next few years

The only thing wrong with your argument is that West Coast aren't very good without Judd and Cousins.

I put that down to a combination of a few things.

Obviously losing those 2 in itself is a massive loss. Particularly Cousins as he was the "spiritual" leader as they call it.

But the flow on effect is a big factor too. With those 2 fit they get the tags, now it's Kerr and one of Embley/Braun/Priddis, none of whom are players that will ever be able to break tags. Add that to losing 2 players from a midfield rotation in the modern game is a pretty big hole to cover.

Outside of those 2 they've had a pretty average run with injuries and also suspension.

Cox is battling a broken foot.

Seaby is out (for whatever reason) so Lynch has to pinch hit in the ruck.

They've had Hunter in and out from CHB, so too Waters in their backline.

Kerr is either suspended or injured.

They haven't had all of Braun, Priddis, Fletcher and Embley play this year (to my knowledge anyway).

Hansen (who I believe is the most important player to their team structure) hasn't been able to consistently get on the park.

Obviously last night with those 2 they probably would've gotten over the line but I'm yet to see Judd win a game for Carlton

That post was directed at someone who made the comment that we have about a dozen guns on our list and using that to prove that CAC's record was fantastic,

12 FUTURE guns... But never mind detail has obviously never been a strong point with you.

Garland, McLean, Morton, Jones, Bate, Davey, Wonnaemerri, Petterd, Bruce, Green, Rivers, Whelan... There's 12 that I rate. And I didn't include about 6 others that I think have solid future but that moaning, whinging nay-sayers like you hang [censored] on constantly for not being Buddy Franklin.

And I NEVER said his record was fantastic. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm here only to prove... aaaagain, that your argement is wholly without substance, forethought or proof... that CAC's recruiting, while not the best in the league, was FAR from a blight on the club.

Yeah right, your response clearly shows that you can't grasp basic concepts,

Oh? WHat basic concepts? Any proof? No rebuttal? No statistics? Oh ok... No fair enough... all those on demonland and abroad who claim CACs record was anything above "ok," you're all flat out wrong because Jarka says so. You're all on notice now.

I'm happy for you to continue throughout your whole life clinging onto the (perceived) knowledge that if we had of just held onto Daniher and CAC for maybe another couple of decades

WHAT? WHO EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CLINGING TO DANIHER?!!! I never said I wanted him to stay! Nor did I say that I wanted CAC to stay?!! I think they'd both run their course, you twit... ONCE AGAIN you've completely missed my point and decided to project whatever notion you wish and read whatever you feel like reading into my posts!

I'm happy though that the club has decided to go down another track.

Jesus. You are dense. This is what I've been arguing ALL ALONG!!!

The ONLY thing I protest to is you coming on and being a soft as marshmellow demons supporter and sticking your boot into a guy who gave 10 years of service from SCRATCH and did what MANY, and I dare say, MOST would say was a good job!!!!

Oh... and where I said you were wrong? You flat out were. You said we had had a LOT more top 6 picks than other sides. Under CAC, for the term of his service we'd had 3 (I had assumed Trav was outside his time at the club, thanks for the info H) Trav, Sylvia and Mclean. One is a B&F winner and was traded for a first round pick at age 27, the other two are still on the list... one is a future captain and while the other hasn't come on te y we'd all like it's still not too late for him o become a solid player... he's no Fiora...

So Jarka you were WRONG! But hey, like I said, never mind the detail... You go ahead and make up your opinions and scapegoat more people who've done a DAMN sight more for MFC than you EVER will... For now, why do you bother posting? Just to expunge whatever angst you may be feeling aimlessly and without reason?

I'm done trying to prove sane, logical points about footy to people who's minds have all the openness of a brick wall. For now I'll let our youth prove my point in the coming years, as they inevitably will...

12 FUTURE guns... But never mind detail has obviously never been a strong point with you.

You mean like completely [censored] up how many top 5 picks Melbourne has had over the last decade? After reading this I can see how the topic of detail could elude you.

I'm not going to bother to reply to the rest of your dribble, what's the point when you can't even get simple facts correct? Added to that you're actually quite boring. Have fun with your obsession.

Edit: I just can't help myself, it's far too easy. On the topic of future guns that you're so adamant about, Matty Whelan is 29 y/o and you label him a future gun? I guess it's just in the detail, isn't it?

Next time dd try to make it at least a little challenging. ta!

I blame CAC for the 1996 decision to pick Brent Grgic with pick 11. Even though he wasnt at the club, I blame him.

Its getting a bit heated in here.

I never ceases to amaze me how quick people sharpen their knives on this site. Some of you people are a disgrace... these are people you are talking about, and you bag the crap out of them. No wonder players have been banned from viewing these sites... who wants to constantly hear how 'crap', 'slow', 'useless' they are.

I'm sure each of you would cringe away if you were asked to repeat some of the crap you've posted about certain people face-to-face with the person. Yeah, it is a public forum to post your views... but jeez, have some respect toward other people

I think the problem the club has had is with assessing its own players and the tolerance and keeping of players who are either not good enough or who have had flaws that have retarded the ability of the team to be anything other than a finals make up the numbers type team. I cant fault CAC too much, he has done a solid job, there are good picks and some howlers in there, but given that the footy dept spending was comparitively low throughout his tenure, its hard to bag him too much. My problem with our drafting is that there have been a lot of players picked that have little scope for improvement post draft, a lot of mature bodies have been acquired which goes against the grain of what I would be looking for, I think the club has had a conservative/risk-free approach and not a taken a few flyers on raw players with great upside where it might have been able to - Garland an example of the type of the player I mean, but there aren't many there. In general the recruitment of experienced AFL players from other clubs has been poor too.

I never ceases to amaze me how quick people sharpen their knives on this site. Some of you people are a disgrace... these are people you are talking about, and you bag the crap out of them. No wonder players have been banned from viewing these sites... who wants to constantly hear how 'crap', 'slow', 'useless' they are.

I'm sure each of you would cringe away if you were asked to repeat some of the crap you've posted about certain people face-to-face with the person. Yeah, it is a public forum to post your views... but jeez, have some respect toward other people

Actually I've discussed my opinions with the man himself, he was more than happy to dissect and examine his own record, he always is happy to be consistently evaulated. It's refreshing considerign you can't even discuss the subject here with some idiot screaming 'heresy!'. God there are some absolute tossers on this site who think they're far more important than they really are.

God there are some absolute tossers on this site who think they're far more important than they really are.

Hopefully that wasn't referring to me, coz I wasn't having a stab at anyone in particular... but you're welcome to your opinion none the less. Nah, I wasn't actually talking about CAC... it's more the players that cop the slagging that pisses me off. They are average blokes... yet some of them cop a pounding from supposed 'supporters' week in, and week out.

Being at the function last night just re-affirmed that for me... they are average blokes, and one table across from me was a group of blokes under 20. They were our up-and-comers... and they are kids. I know I wouldn't of been able to handle the continual criticism some of those boys cop on a weekly basis when I was 18-19... I still wouldn't be able to now.

You'd learn to laugh it off pretty quick.

The only opinions that matter to an AFL player should be that of their peers and coaching staff

Craig Cameron is reponsible for our shambles ogf a list,

Yeah, like all lists there are some good points, but overall, terrible..

How can u say CC did a good job when he is the 1 responsible, damn fools!! simple!!

WAKE UP!!!

ggggrrr..

HAHAHAHAHA! oh, Nudge!

I must admit that I got pretty worked up when I read your opening post. I could already feel a systematic and forceful rebuttal coming on. But then, just as I started flexing my fingers like the keyboard warrior that I am, I noticed that out of:

"Frawley (never will be anything, just looks very average at best!), Dunn, MOLAN, Newton (may be JUST ok), Sylvia, Bell, Neville, Miller, Wheatley, Grgic, Williams.. plus many more.."

"Can't wait till the end of the year to say by bye 2: Dunn, Whealey, Bell, Yze, Sylvia (trade), Jamar, Buckley (could be ok if disposal wasn't so bad), Miller, Holland (good servant, should of played more, esp this year), Carroll (would stay if we werent rebuilding) Whelan and more.. "

...you rate Newton the best prospect (presumably on the strength of 1 mark taken almost a year ago). This is despite the ample time that he has had to prove himself in comparison with some of our other youngsters.

It was then that I began broke out in laughter and realised that it wasn't worth my time.

HAHAHAHAHA! oh, Nudge!

I must admit that I got pretty worked up when I read your opening post. I could already feel a systematic and forceful rebuttal coming on. But then, just as I started flexing my fingers like the keyboard warrior that I am, I noticed that out of:

...you rate Newton the best prospect (presumably on the strength of 1 mark taken almost a year ago). This is despite the ample time that he has had to prove himself in comparison with some of our other youngsters.

It was then that I began broke out in laughter and realised that it wasn't worth my time.

ahh, by saying he "may be JUST ok"..

hmm, i think ur exaggerating..

I'll wait till he kicks his injuries to pass judgement, the mark had nothing 2 do with it, he does have some raw talent, but yes, he needs to DO something!!

We are on the bottom of the ladder with the worst list in the AFL.

Of the 48 players who participated in the 150 year Tribute game, we contributed precisely none.

Now that Neitz has retired, we don't have a proven big bodied key position player on our list - nor is one coming through( unless you rate Stefan Martin - or believe that Juice Newton and Colin Garland have big bodies).

The facts speak for themselves - recruiting and list management under CAC was sub-standard