Macca

Rams, Panthers, Falcons

26 years old and a restricted free agent. Drafted in 2011 so 8 years on the GWS list by trading time. Approximately half our list isn't up to it (or unproven) and if our only cost is salary cap space then we acquire him if he wants to come to us. We can get 5-6 years of football out of the bloke and we get to add another decent player to the list. Do it times 3 if other restricted free agents are available. Why stop at one? Our list needs an injection of talent. Think of Tomlinson as replacing a player who we're going to delist anyway. It's a no-brainer really.

My reckoning is that you need an ongoing great list in order to win multiple flags. We could pop up and win one (only) if everything goes well but I'd rather see the club build a great list and maintain that great list. Have multiple chances to win multiple premierships. Starting off from our Demons in the 50's & 60's we've seen any number of other teams rule the roost In a bit of a jumbled order from beyond our great era ... Essendon, Richmond, Carlton, Hawthorn, North, Carlton, Hawthorn, Essendon, Hawthorn, West Coast, North, Brisbane, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast and then Hawthorn again. All won multiple flags with great lists. And in that time frame other top teams with top lists of players couldn't even win 1 flag. Collingwood twice, Geelong and St Kilda as well. In my time, we have never gone close to having a great list. Nothing replaces pure talent. I have actually been saying the same thing since the early 70's. It's always the other teams with all the best players. Not us.

Well they had better hope that the broadcast rights money keeps increasing as they've got a combined $60Million cost each year for the 2 new teams. TV ratings dropped off alarmingly from 2014 through to the end of 2018 (109 million actual eyes down to 90 milion) Not sure what has happened this year although Gil came out this year and told us some propaganda about TV numbers. I'm sceptical though. Hey, footy rules Rack-em but you don't necessarily want large ongoing debts. The teams in Melbourne might have to watch their pennies if and when they get out of pokies. We might be moving out of the NT eventually but the $800k per game gets replaced with what? I get the whole long game argument but it has to be cost effective.

Not sure we've got that strong a core AF. I might have said so at the end of 2018 but our list of top players has dropped away to a point where we don't have that many Top player = plays well in 4 of 5 games by either winning his position or beating his opponent. In the midfield breaking even with your opponent counts but those top players still need to get 'wins' We had any number of our better players down on form this season and that is a worrying trend. We became lazy. Didn't work hard enough for wins. Did the players think it was all just going to happen? We now are a team that looks good on paper only. The core that you speak of only managed 5 wins. And that's not good enough. Make no mistake, we need a big injection of talent over the next 4 - 5 years. If that happens, we can challenge for the flag. But not before Sure, we can get back up to 9 or 10 wins and maybe even 12-13 wins at a stretch but to be a true contender we are a fair way off. Above all else, we're just too slow right now. I don't believe in aberration moments in sport nor outlier moments. Flukes don't count although they can happen. Just never rely on them.

Maybe, but I could mount an argument that 18 teams dilutes the talent base and you end up with unwatchable games (or low interest) Also, it remains to be seen whether GWS really do add to the bottom line. I hear the corporate spin but GWS and the Gold Coast have no real income streams and are burdonsome The AFL almost certainly plows $30Million per year into each 'franchise' so is it all worth it? Year after year after year The media won't be talking like I do but they're tied strongly to the AFL aren't they? There is what they tell you and then there is the truth. Me - I don't necessarily believe any of it.

Even though I see GWS as a broadcast rights team I'm not sure they add many eyes to the TV sets or other forms of media The membership number is total nonsense and I just flat out don't believe it. As for the crowds they attract, the numbers are low and that's why we have the fake piped crowd noise. It's just rubbish But they've built a very good list and that's why they're in the GF. I'd say good on them but who are they? Mercenaries? Freeloaders? Sorry mate, they are not a proper footy side and all they represent is money. Even Leipzig in the Bundesliga has a core of proper fans. Look them up for the story. I'm not even sure you care a lot for them either. You're probably like me but saying otherwise.

Don't assume that all the circumstances would remain the same. And don't assume that we would have become a basket case. So at the end of 2005 the club notes that we've some talent on the list but it is ageing. That's when you bring in a couple of talented players. We're playing finals so we're a destination club yeah? So, with a lot of creative recruiting, you're able to trade for those 2 good players. Not too old but 25 or 26 is ok if the player is a gun. And then keep repeating the process. You don't bottom out and you don't become a basket case. And don't wait until you become a basket case and then have too much faith in drafting. But of course, that is what we did. I did try and warn people both here and elsewhere. Most I know now agree with my stance. Even a few here. ?

Ķ As previously stated I would play the long game with trading for talent If it was me calling the shots every player B+ or A grade could get called upon (via their manager) and they would know the offer was a fair chance of happening. It would never be a last minute offer. So take your pick. Every talented player is an option. My view on footy is that X amount of top players = X amount of wins. In an ideal world we'd have 6-8 more top players than our nearest rival. And that does happen ...all the way back to the Demons of the 50's & 60's with a whole bunch of dynasty teams in between.

That's because it's never been tried ... why are you so convinced that it can't work? New information difficult to process? Primarily trade too ... not totally as a club does have to draft 3 players per season. Perhaps you need to start thinking outside the square a bit more. Your way is far too conservative and there's too much company policy involved in your argument You really think the pick 2 or 3 is the answer if the player is an 18yo draftee? The messiah mentality will rear it's ugly head again. Expectations through the roof and the kid is still at high school.

Congratulations on being a spokesperson for the AFL. No really, you're doing a good job. You won't be convincing me. Why should I be concerned about the corporate dollar? Care factor zero Mayz

We've played 1 finals series in the last 13 years ... there's your answer. And we won't be playing finals next year without a healthy dose of added talent. We are a long way off and the reason we're in that spot is because of our putrid recruiting. Numerous draft picks going wrong could have been avoided. Trade for talent. May, Lever, Melksham & Hibberd is a good start so we're at least not putting all our eggs in one basket with drafting (as we did previously) And I've never been one to say we should have picked another player in the draft. That really is hindsight nonsense.

Ok then ... we'll just sit on our hands and hope for the best hey AF? Your way hasn't worked. My way hasn't even been tried. You might want to read up on the New England Patriots. Arguably the most successful team going around and they have turned trading picks into an absolute artform. They are brilliant at it Broaden those horizons and look outside the AFL bubble.

You're building a list through trading for 21-23yo proven talent. And you use draft picks to trade. And I'm not talking anything less than B+. You also bring in quality free agents. You might still draft when it suits but trading is the main M.O. So what is so hard to understand? As you add more talent you get better. To be honest, I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about I think you've got drafting 18 year old's on the brain. Let it go mate. There are other ways to get to the finishing line.

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Well GWS have done a top job at list building but I have already acknowledged that. I just don't care for them. They are a broadcast rights team. They are there for financial reasons And I'm not a cheerleader for the AFL. MFC - different story.

I played a lot of sport and all the successful teams I played with or played against had loads of talent The same principle applies at the top end of sport. Mate, we're 5 & 17 for a reason. 3/4's of the list aren't much chop Our disposal skills and decision making is woeful. And it's up to the players to improve their own form and abilities. Unless you want the coach to hold their hands? Coach killers - Our list You want to blame Goodwin the same as others blamed Bailey & Neeld. Do that and you're going to get it wrong. The coach can only do so much. Hardwick, Clarkson or Simpson would turn our list over.

You left out the bit where I bundle up picks for proven talent. And trading out our off-cuts to get even more picks to trade for talent. And plenty of good players have been traded for draft picks. Lynch, Treloar, Dangerfield, Judd, Mitchell, O'Meara and numerous others. Buddy went for free didn't he? Free agency is another area where we've been virtually dormant. I reckon we're just happy to roll on and be a participant.

My way sees the club trading for Oliver or trading for a similar player So you don't lose and the clubs overvalue first round picks anyway Still not convinced?

It is not an oversimplification at all. And certainly not disingenuous. Of course you can build the guts of your team around trading. Do the maths AF And I am not late to the part either. Nothing is in hindsight. I have had the same stance for decades Examples ... Instead of drafting Morton we use that pick on a proven top player. That player would have almost certainly had a great career with us and might even still be playing for us now. Morton had a forgettable career with us Ditto for Watts Ditto for Trengove Ditto for Gysberts Ditto for Strauss Ditto for Maric Ditto for Tapscott Ditto for Blease Ditto for Cook Ditto for Toumpas Ditto for Scully (although we did get Hogan and subsequently May for Scully) We wasted pick 12 on a non B+ player in Clark. Ugly hey? Draft picks are overrated as well so we may well have picked up (through trading) at least a dozen top players in that time period. Perhaps a few more if we were able to add in any number of the 2nd & 3rd rounders. It should be noted that we traded Melksham, Hibberd & Frost for 2nd rounders. But still, we're 5 and 17 after all that and you still believe in drafting? Astonishing. You probably think it's just the clubs making colossal errors. It's a system failure that hasn't been outed.

Whatever the number might be it could be assumed that the number is not correct. Spin will be applied as image is all-important. This is the AFL we're talking about. My guess is that there will be a number of tickets available but those tickets will be conveniently relocated in a number of different directions. There won't be a general announcement that GWS members have only taken up a small amount of their GF ticket allication. I doubt it anyway. Do they have any real supporters? Does fake piped cheering count? If there was fake piped booing it might sound more authentic. I never thought I'd ever be cheering for the ferals but they are at least a proper footy team. GWS are a broadcast rights team. No soul. Just an entity that I will probably never recognise.

GCS is a holiday camp and the club is a company store that is poorly run As much as I can't even identify with the Giants they do make great decisions and they do understand the draft. They were smart enough to know that there are busts coming so they traded the also-rans to those clubs who wanted the hand-me-downs. Double dipped and then triple dipped. Other clubs like Hawthorn, Collingwood, Richmond & Geelong trade for real talent. And they play finals. So the difference between the GCS & GWS is stark even though they both started off at the same sort of base. It is not one size fits all. Clubs still have to make sensible decisions Our club works under the same salary cap and recruiting conditions as the other clubs yet we continually fail. The club doesn't knows how to be successful 55.

There is no getting through to you is there? They were recruited as kids ... high school age. Entering a brutal man's world at that age. Half of them fail for good reason. They are not equipped and there is no way of measuring whether they are equipped or not at that age Unless you want to believe the spin doctors & the bs artists. You only know what you've been told. I doubt that you'll ever get it. Start thinking for yourself if you can. I would recruit ready made stars with great attitude and great skills. You want to take your chances in a lottery called the draft. You are destined to lose and I can't really lose. My way is a much safer route. You prefer high risk outcomes. Whilst you prefer to speculate I prefer the real deal. And I said the same thing to you and numerous others 8 years ago. Still don't want to listen do you? But the thinking is shifting Wyl ... people are getting tired of the disappointments. They want to win.

If it was about attitude we would have all been champion foitballers Wyl And you do just blame Goodwin. All the time. In fact, you never shut up about him. You rarely, if ever, talk about the actual talent levels of the players. You bang on about 'Attitude' way too much. No amount of great attitude was ever going to turn Toumpas, Blease, Morton, Cook, Tapscott, Strauss, Maric, Gysberts and hundreds of others into good footballers. Way too many failures for it to be simply about attitude. They all had the same thing in common ... they couldn't play and we recruited them. So the answer is to move them on and recruit real talent. But we just prefer the lottery (the draft) ... and we just keep coming back for more as if it's all going to turn around. Draft = Fools Gold. Meanwhile, we're a cellar dweller without any real ambition. We don't know how to be a power club. It's not about attitude, it's about being realistic and smart. We are quite determined but in the wrong way. You've got to have a good plan organised by smart people with good governance.

See I wouldn't bother about the scrutiny as a motivating force. What we need to see are people who know what they're doing with a workable, successful plan. Roos showed us the way as did RDB back in the 80's. But on both occasions we were too far back. Putting the heat on coaches like DB, Neeld, Goodwin and the like won't necessarily make those coaches perform better. In fact, the opposite can often happen where everything just disintegrates because of outside forces. And that's what we've witnessed. Our issues have to do with talent levels and always will be. Even with a great list major problems are just around the corner. As Smith found out. Nothing works like pure talent ... and clubs usually have excellent admin & coaching levels in order to get that pure talent. One doesn't work without the other. We need to recruit better. A seismic shift needs to occur. And if we ever by chance get to a point where we have an excess of talent, that's a great problem to have. Go through the list and do an honest appraisal of talent levels. With no bias whatsoever. I've done it and we are way short on pure talent. Even our good players have glaring weaknesses. If you think it's just Goodwin, you're wrong. But any coach needs to be involved with creating a great list. Or have a great list created for him. And that is not something that has been seen for decades.