Macca

Oscar needs some beast-mode if he wants to become a better player. Put some real muscle on that frame and play with more aggression accordingly. His actual skills when kicking aren't too bad but he gets outbodied far too easily in marking contests. Thus when the ball hits the deck he's often out of position I'd keep him as back-up though as injuries are almost a given in the AFL.

Frost may well have overpriced himself to get out of the joint. Quite freely too without Hawthorn telling him to do so. Or the Hawks might have played that card. Or perhaps the 'too-high' asking price isn't actually true at all.

What about the rest of them? Do you let them off the hook? You shouldn't. They're all as bad as each other. Coach killers but the coach isn't that good either. I'd clear the decks rather than try and single anyone out The players rule the roost and the club lets them do it. Most people I know that are non Demons all make the same observation. And the same types of players who rule the roost are the first to jump ship when it suits them.

That aside I found it stunning that Goodwin quite openly admitted that he didn't coach the fundamentals this season We're looking for the 'Extra's' and the basics get ignored? What the hell are we paying the bloke 800k per year to do? Serious question. And whatever happened to 'Fearless Football'? Now sounding a lot like "We'll be the hardest Team to Play Against'

I said the very same thing here last night ... do what you do, do well (and all that) Team rules should always carry nuance when factoring in players strengths and weaknesses For instance, Robbie Flower's long handball to position probably wouldn't suit Goodwin's style. But it is a weapon rarely seen in today's rigid style of football Goodwin needs to let the players show their individual traits. Hardwick now lets his players play. And it all fits together well.

Yes they do. Same as the players had to take responsibility during the Bailey & Neeld years. I always remember those comments from Brad Green about the players needing to buy-in to the new regime under Neeld. At the time I thought it should have just been an automatic thing to do rather than making an effort to do so. But I'm not sure they did anyway and we look like we've regressed back to kind. We can't go back to just sacking the coach again. A lot of work ahead but it's better to evaluate the list after the trade period and after the draft. And then we reboot and start all over again. We supporters know what is ahead of the team but does the team know?

You make good points AF and I don't disagree with what you've got to say but it's both really. Actual disposal skills and the inability to make position. And an example of our poor disposal skills is our kicking for goal. Yip-City. Ball drop, approach, execution, follow through and even how we line up is error-ridden. And not just when we're lining up for goal. The biomechanics aren't there. But the inability to make position may be of greater concern if it highlights how lazy we are. Coupled with rjay's info that the players aren't carrying out basic instructions. Not good.

And then there are the Lewis comments at the B & F about the attitudes in the pre-season. We got ahead of ourselves. I'm convinced now. And that is a recipe for disaster looking ahead. It was evident from round 1 or even earlier in the practice games. The lack of fight was what stood out to me. But if what you say is true then the disconnect from the players to the Coaching dept/MC is a deep concern. Not so easy to correct either. In the aftermath Goodwin stays but a number of assistants don't. But haven't we seen all this before? History repeats by the looks of it. We saw players openly arguing with each other on the field and we lost 17 games. Says it all really.

There's that too but our disposal skills are suburban level. Deplorable really. But you're not wrong. We're a lazy football team. We don't work hard enough to win games of football I'm wondering what RDB would make of it all if he was in his prime and coaching us. My guess is he'd be seething with anger. Northey too.

We are still a rubbish outfit with him gone. Unless there is an influx of real talent and lots of it. How many highly skilled players do we actually have? Most of them turn the ball over at some stage during the games and a number of them do it multiple times. So it isn't just Frost. The problem will remain once he's gone. There's your context rjay. I reckon he's been badly handled and poorly coached. But again, that appraisal could apply to a number of our other players. And the players don't help their own cause by not helping themselves. Self improvement doesn't really exist at the Demons.

But Collingwood kick well to position where as we don't. Their system works because of their collective skill set. We on the other hand have system breakdowns all over the field because our blokes can't kick to position. That's why we lose.

Chaos in our forward line already exists. Everyone panics and we choke in front of goal Utter chaos I'd call it. Not that it matters now but Frost should have been under instruction with us to run with the ball and then roost it deep into the pockets (Collingwood style) A better percentage play given his skill set. The long ball should still exist for low skilled teams like ourselves anyway. For all the effort we go to in trying to retain possession, we may as well just roost it long for metres gained. But not always of course. Clarkson won't have Frost dinking the ball off with short kicks or handpassing it off whilst running at top pace. He'll know how to use him. Richmond do the same with a few of their players. Except they've got 3 fabulous targets (Lynch, Reiwoldt, Martin) that can mark a long ball in.

Leaderboard in the Tipping Comp 5 - Dee Zephyr, Go the Biff 4 - JV7, Macca 3 - Dappa Dan 2 - DeeSpencer, Layzie, Clintosaurus, Gorgoroth. I'll post up the lines tomorrow night but 2 points are on offer this week (week 5) Seahawks at the Rams on Friday.

Reckon you're right ... Frost being uncontracted gives us very little leverage. None really. Talk of Frost having to go to the draft again is not going to happen either. We might be able to eke out a 3rd rounder but I'm not holding my breath.

See if we were in the business of trading for talent (at the top end) we'd have any number of potential suiters in our sights. Just think about how sport is organised in the USA for instance. Or big time soccer Any number of top-notch sportsmen are traded for or purchased at the the drop of a hat. Contracted or not. The same thing is starting to happen here in Oz but there is nothing to stop our club from aggressively pursuing any talented player. Hell, we landed Moore & Templeton from nowhere back in 1982. The story broke very late when the deals had already been done. Forget the results, that's not my point. With that double move, we started becoming a player again. But we never had the money to land a half a dozen more talented players back then. So yeah, I'd be ultra aggressive in pursuing top end talent. Proven talent. And I'd use draft picks but I'd trade out a player or 2 to get more draft picks to trade for more talent. And to get what you need some tough decisions need to be made. There aren't many of the existing players that I'd rule out either (in terms of trading out)

Cook was the all Australian CHF in his draft year. Plenty here knew about him and when we drafted him many were rapt to get him. Do a search and read the threads on him if you want the proof Lynch wasn't really mentioned by anyone. More so later (which is too late) But the information that comes later is often used as an argument when looking back Quite frankly, I don't ever believe a word of it. The 'I tipped this' people. That's a laugh.

And I am not saying that we ignore the draft altogether. I am simply pointing out the flaws in the draft. Nothing is perfect, least of all the draft. But you'd never know it if you'd only ventured here. And be honest here, did you stuck your neck out at the time and mention that the selection of Gysberts, Toumpas & Cook were mistakes. See it's easy in hindsight to make those claims but I've read all the threads here on all 3 players and not one bad word was said about any of the 3. Not a word Most of the appraisals are said in hindsight. After they started playing for the club. Nearly all of them in fact.

I wouldn't necessarily draft a player or if I did it might be the choice of 6 - 8 players I'd be more looking at trading in a Prestia or Sheil type for the pick with maybe a late 2nd rounder coming back our way as well. But I believe we might have to use 1 first round draft pick on a draftee this year so with some astute trading we could trade pick 3 and work our way back to a pick somewhere between 11 & 16. Time will tell We have to remember that in real terms draft pick numbers are overvalued. For instance, I value Prestia or Sheil as being worth 2 x top 10 picks. Many would disagree but if the strike is 50/50 then 2 top 10 picks is therefore fair. Collingwood coughed up 2 x top 10 picks for Treloar but that's the outlier trade. But as previously stated, the busts are going to happen because of the very nature of drafting. It's not a colossal amount of clubs making a colossal amount of unforced errors. The system is a lottery or a glorified lucky dip. But here's the thing, if you or anyone else puts aside all the bad news, the draft can be seen as entirely accurate. But bad news is bad news. It just cannot be ignored. The entire history of drafting backs up my assertions.

Like I have always said, you go to the draft with trepidation. I am not against drafting because clubs have to draft at least 3 prospects. But that is all they are - prospects. Drafting is high risk but more so with top end picks or top 10 picks. As we've found out. With all those busts we probably would have been better off drawing names out of a hat. And T-Mac was always going to be a late pick based on his junior form so we could have still got him as well as using the Cook pick on proven talent. So we end up with 2 decent players instead of one. From my point of view the above is not a hindsight comment. It might look thay way to others but my posting history here says otherwise.

In the context I meant it as, it is true If 95%+ of the supporter group agree and gp along with a club decision, they are stuck with that decision

As for Lucas Cook Not one bad word was said about in this place. I have read the threads on him. And he was always going to be drafted jn the first round. An all Australian under 18 CHF. Some thought we were getting the next Nick Reiwoldt Didn't play a game.

What matters is what the large majority of the supporter base thought at the time As individuals, we have our own thoughts but do those thoughts even matter? I'd say an emphatic no. I would have traded a lot of those picks but it isn't about me. I might have been right too but what is done, is done.

Our strategy was to srick to it and see it through (drafting) but it failed spectacularly So again, the club did what the supporter group wanted it to do. So we cannot complain now You make your chouces, you live with them. Now ww've changed tack (finally) and are trading for talent. Again, the choice of many. This time around, it should work out. We still have to use the draft for at least 3 choices but those choices will still deliver unknown results You never 'nail' draft choices. You get lucky.

It shouldn't necessarily be assumed that clubs go to the draft because they can't attract proven talent. It's my belief that a lot of clubs don't realise that drafting is flawed But the thinking has changed and is still changing. Clubs give up top 10 picks for talent a lot more than they used to GWS get it but probably by default. They have off-loaded top 10 picks who don't measure up a lot quicker than any other club. So as to double-dip and even triple-dip through the draft. The odds are about 50/50 so if you get a stack of chances in the one year ..... Yet people point the finger at them for picking players in the draft who don't measure up. Same as they do for every other club. GCS on the other hand hang on to top end picks in a reverse way but lose their good choices to the vultures down South. With drafting I prefer to embrace the bad news as well. Most others don't want to know about the bad news. They simply prefer to blame the clubs for the hundreds of busts that the draft delivers (over time) Or they throw out the 'Development' card. Another cop-out. Great players with great talent are born. But the great under 18 form is only a guide. It is not foolproof. The facts bear that appraisal out.

Scully & Trengove were the standout picks too. Martin was 3rd pick but was always 3rd choice Yet Martin is now being talked about as an all-time great and one of the best ever. Pick 3. And even though pick 3 'could' unearth another star the smarter percentage play is to trade the pick for proven talent. At least you know what you're getting that way. And draft picks are grossly overvalued There's even a points system attached to the picks as if busts should never happen. It's just nonsense. Pure unadulterated nonsense.