Macca

JVR might be getting specialist coaching for all we know, but it would be nice to see how he'd go in an open forward line (which I'm not sure he's ever seen as our forward line has remained crowded since the start of the 2022 season) We've got a lot of work to do in order to contend again ... and just sacking the coach isn't going to fix things (IMV) Lots of issues and a lot of those issues can only be achieved at the trade table (Leg speed, foot and hand skills, KPF's, KPB?, Max Replacement, Marking power, Goal kicking power etc etc) Our strength is our backline & midfield quality and depth. In fact, those 2 areas very nearly won us 2 finals in 2023 (our forward line was almost completely decimated by injury in 2023) The big watch is on Petracca & Oliver. At various times both have been top 10 in the league. If we see that again then why would we trade them?

Fantastic news! And with Langford showing his wares yesterday, we can look forward to both players excelling in the colours (this season)

I'm not sure anyone here wants to trade McVee (was that a typo, Roost it?) But we can't lay all the blame at the feet of Goodwin. So if it's the players and the coach then we'll need some sort of clean-out And that means revamping the list in my view There's a good chance that we can trade aggressively and improve the list But to do that you have to give up a bit For me it's always about the team ... individuals come 2nd

There are shades of 2012/2013 right now but it's only shades of. The coach copping all the blame with the players being unable to think for themselves. Sound familiar? Back then our list was devoid of talent where as in the present day we've got loads of good players (playing an outdated style) Ball movement slow and via the cape. Constant fumbling. Working for stoppages mainly along the boundary line. A refusal to use the corridor etc etc You'd love to be a fly on the wall for the team meetings. What is being said and if we are trying to change our style, what is it? @waynewussell made mention about how we trained in the pre-season with fast ball movement criss-crossing at angles heading into the forward line So where is it? Is it a muscle-memory issue with our players? No buy-in?

JVR might be best suited as a tall, high-half forward type I don't see him as a deep key position forward as because that position is only reserved for the exceptionally good in today's footy, JVR just doesn't have the hands or the nouse (right now at least) But the slow delivery forward and long bombs forward has stifled the development of all our marking forwards anyway For instance, Ben Brown was reduced to spoiling the ball towards the end of his career (as a result of the constant bombing) And Brown was a lead-up marking type when at his best. But lead-up marking in our forward line? Does it ever happen?

Different types of players but bombing the ball on top of the heads of our forwards can & does effect the productivity of any of our forwards So if JVR gets off the hook then so should Fritsch. But right now, neither player is winning enough of their own ball anyway If anything, the connection between our mids and forwards is actually getting worse. It's a dogs breakfast A clean out/revamp/do-over ... take your pick, we've been left behind from the modern trends Fast ball movement forward with exquisite foot and hand skills is what is required and we are miles away from achieving that And the fumbling!!! We'd be winning that stat, BoBo!

Wow, those are damning stats All the more reason to revamp our midfield with a do-over Of course, we've already started doing so with the acquisition of Tholstrup, Windsor, Lindsay, Langford along with Sharp & Billings as back ups As well as using Kozzie at the stoppages periodically So the above is not so much a coincidence but a plan that will take a bit of time

Yeah I wouldn't be giving up on JVR (unless we got a really good offer) He's still playing like a 1st or 2nd year player and I'd be pushing him up into the play as a CHF type with a license to roam (a bit like how T-Mac used to play as a forward) Create a bit of space for himself But in the meantime, some specialist coaching wouldn't go astray

Doesn't relish the front position and doesn't know where or how to lead Doesn't read the play well or the ball trajectory for that matter He actually needs to be coached properly on how to play as a key forward by a specialist coach who has played the position He could be ok but he needs coaching I find it a bit odd that excuses are made for JVR but not for someone like Fritsch And a good forward wins his own ball

Yes, but I doubt that Salem would be a tradable type as he's too old to get much in return. He'd be more of an off-load (and a keeper for mine) Where as the others I listed are a lot younger or are top players (when at their best) Sparrow - early 2nd rounder Rivers - Late 1st rounder JVR - Some club will want him, late 1st rounder? Fritsch - Again, some clubs will want him but he is 29 next season. Early 2nd rounder Oliver - 2 x 1st round picks (but will they pay up) Petracca - 2 x 1st round picks (again, will they pay up) That's a cleanout but what are we getting in return right now? I'd say overall - bog average It's not just the coach

Well the keepers (for now) include players such as Max, Viney, Salem, Petty, Lever, May, Langdon, Kozzie*, Bowey, Chandler and a few others As well as our younger crop of players who will be more experienced in 2 years time ... Langford, Lindsay, McVee, Mentha, Tholstrup, Windsor etc etc And if we trade big time, we can add about 7 or 8 first or 2nd round draft picks from the 2025 draft Sounds fanciful but is it? We just seen Richmond do it and in overseas sports, huge off-season trading is commonplace So the tradeables could be Oliver, JVR, Petracca, Rivers, Fritsch & Sparrow. It won't be all of them but maybe 3 or 4 So if we want a clean-out and a rebuild that's what the club has to do A new coach with the current group might see more of what we're seeing now The club needs a shake-up *Kozzie is a keeper

Yes, we need to get a decent offer for Petracca otherwise he is more value staying (so long as he can turn things around) I wouldn't be giving Collingwood a leg-up. Or any team for that matter You don't strengthen a rival whilst weakening your own position Same story for Oliver and a few others. We'll need to get true value coming back So trade aggressively For the right offer, I'd trade both Oliver & Petracca Kozzie is a keeper, so a super-offer would have to be presented If West Coast want to give us a first rounder for JVR, I'd take it in a heartbeat and use that pick towards a proper key forward. van Rooyen can't read the play, nor can he read the trajectory of the ball. He looks like a fish out of water most of the time. Right now, he's a liability Fritsch might want out too as we've made it darn near impossible for him to excel, with our shoddy disposal forward of centre. To be fair, his last 2 games have been much improved We need a cleanout and a rebuild (of sorts) Similar to what Richmond have done And we need to do it now as future drafts post 2025 are going to be compromised Face it, it would take a minor miracle for us to play finals this season so we might as well start planning for the future Sparrow & Rivers could also be traded if the right offers came our way. Neither of those 2 use the ball well. Bombs away If we can bring in around 3 or 4 first round picks and 3 or 4 2nd rounders for the 2025 draft, we can rebuild this team ... but that means a bit of a cleanout Somewhere in all that mix, well need a fully fledged ruckman to replace Max (Jackson?) Do all that and we can contend again from 2027 onwards

Not long after Paul Roos was appointed as coach he made mention that player agents were having too much influence ... I interpreted that as the players ruling the roost Maybe we're back at that point after an off-season where we were openly hawking a player who'd gone off the rails, another player wanting out and another player where the speculation is he wants to go A President standing down abruptly followed shortly by the CEO Just imagine being a player in that sort of environment. What would you be thinking? Every man for himself? Playing selfish? So a cleanout and a mini-rebuild is on the cards. Certainly not a total rebuild as we've got a number of good players and up-and-comers on the list already But we need to make a play for an experienced KPF (easier said than done) and we'll need a decent ruckman soon enough And pace pace pace and skills skills skills (especially kicking skills) Petracca and Oliver could be traded but I wouldn't let Kozzie go. Fritsch might want out as we've made it a nightmare for our forwards to impact Petty can replace May as the FB but we will need another tall defender anyway

I interpret playing differently to be playing quickly as moving the ball slowly just lends itself to getting pushed wide and indirect Players stopping & propping leads to crowded forward lines as does attacking slowly via the boundary line ... it's like we are frightened to use the corridor So direct football has to be quick otherwise it can't work And the better teams are moving the ball quickly and in a more direct manner (which is not a new thing, btw) We are treacle-slow so if we are not at least trying to move the ball quickly and in a more direct manner, we should be We've got issues all over the ground now ... we have no real pace or rebound out of our backline, our forwards can't win their own ball and generally lack talent ... and the mids just continue to bomb it long without any thought And now we're getting done at what were formally strengths ... clearances & contested ball Right now, our game plan is a dog's breakfast I reckon coming off a tumultuous off season has taken it's toll. It's like we are playing with an every-man-for-himself type attitude. Hard to coach under those circumstances Players make coaches but players can also destroy a coach Petracca wanting out, Oliver going off the rails and the constant speculation with Kozzie can create a selfish environment within the playing group Bottom line is the players aren't playing for each other and we are not playing as a team

It seems like we've got a mountain of issues but another fully-fledged coach is probably only feasible from the 2025 off-season onwards So we've got a season to get through So the immediate replacement for Goodwin would probably be a caretaker coach But it can't be all on the coach anyway. The players need to take responsibility for their own ineptness. Own it and as a collective, fight back It's not like they are a bunch of rookies who don't know any better With all the focus on the coach, it effectively let's the players off the hook So what happens if we sack Goodwin and appoint a replacement coach and still cop thrashings? We'll be blaming the players then of course

I wouldn't lose too much sleep if Goodwin was sacked as he's had a good go at it and it's probably time for a change I reckon our players are too set in their ways. The default move during game-day pressure is to play the old, sideways, slow style But in the meantime, I truly hope that Goodwin can turn things around. Losing sucks But again, the question is what will the club do? Is the board having informal chats right now? Would they pull the trigger in season? What's the payout figure and can we afford a large payout? What's it going to look like to the football world? The other thing is that if we keep getting thrashed and are non-competitive, the crowds will drop off and that will cost us money both this season and for future fixturing in seasons ahead If my memory serves me correctly, I believe the club lost $3.5Million after the disastrous 2013 season This season, we have 7 or 8 of our 11 home games against low-drawing opposition so the AFL have already relegated us from prime-time fixtures* after last season's 11 win season ... so it doesn't take much *We are involved in a prime-time fixture this upcoming Friday so we'd want to at least be competitive

Listened in to SEN a bit as I had to work and they made mention (on countless occasions) about our slow ball movement So if we are trying to move the ball quickly, then whatever we are trying to do is obviously not working And it's one thing to put the onus on the coach but what about the players? If they can't enact a simple instruction, then how is another voice going to make an ounce of difference? 3 games is a small sample size but did we not try and change our game plan last season and then abandon that new game plan and went back to the old game plan? One could deduce that we have a player personnel issue with regards to a number of players not being able to adjust to change I'm leaning more towards the view that @bing181 has towards this new game plan (player adaptability issue)

So what are we all doing here? (as footy fans) In my view, we are following our cave-man instincts and we want our tribe to win And the people in the middle (the arbitrators) are not to be trusted haha

I'm counting the wilderness years for Richmond from 1983 onwards ... for most of those 3 and a half decades they were a poorly performed team (but still had feral support in large numbers) The point I'm making is that supporters really don't have much influence over a teams fortunes Collingwood from 1964 to 1989 had about 10 opportunities to win flags but got none in that time period The Cats from 1981 to 2006 about 8 realistic chances at a flag. Zero flags By contrast, the Demons had zero opportunities at a flag from 1965 to 1986. Not even a finals appearance in that time-frame But you can get your own success by getting involved at local level. Where an individual can actually make a difference (if you find yourself involved at a poorly performed club at local level, either fix it or leave) But as footy supporters we are mere onlookers and our words mean nothing ... it's just chit-chat But that's just my view, you and others don't have to agree with me

What we want to happen and what will actually happen are often poles apart Richmond are a good example. For all their feral support, they were non competitive for close on 35 years It took people like Gale, Balme, Hardwick and others to get their club going until they finally achieved success And the success they achieved was not something their supporters even expected after decades in the wilderness And then from nowhere, 3 flags in 4 years So in many ways, we get what we are given As previously stated, if things don't improve, the coach will get the flick The flag gets Goodwin more time as does his overall W/L record along with finals participation in 2018, 2022 & 2023. And even if he is sacked in season, I don't expect any sort of improvement with a caretaker coach. The sport is too professional these days for someone to just come in and turn things around with a magic wand Our issues run deep and to able to implement a totally new game will not just need the right coach, but the right types of talented, coachable players

The question is not about your view (or my view) on whether Goodwin stays or goes It's out of hands and in the clubs hands I've always felt that our opinions mean nothing to clubs ... they are going to do what they are going to do All we can hope for is that the club can make good decisions as we are powerless to change things ourselves All our words have no impact. They are just words But if things don't improve, they'll sack Goodwin. But when?

Haha! As for whether Voss & Carlton is the bigger story, I'm not so sure after today I honestly thought we'd redeem ourselves today, but a 10 goal loss? Our ball movement is just soooooo slow The whole squad needs to be reprogrammed but to change in such a dramatic fashion requires a total buy-in And the plan has to make sense as well New plan with a total buy-in probably requires a new voice but is the club going to cut ties with the coach in season? I can't see us doing it again but we did so with Balme, Daniher, Bailey & Neeld So we've got form in the in-season sacking dept.

I agree with what you are saying but I reckon Carlton & Voss is the bigger story in eyes of the media & public

As for the pressure meter on any given coach, the heat is going to be applied to Voss way more than Goodwin If the Blues lose to Collingwood next Thursday, it will be on for young and old at Princes Park Mind you, North lost their first 4 games in 1975 and were 3 & 6 after round 9 but then went on to win the flag that year

I don't quite know where we sit right now because if we are trying to change how our offense goes about it, we are at the very least, a work in progress Requires a buy-in from every player and that's not an easy thing to do. We need to get back to playing as a team We live in hope As for Carlton, when opposition teams up the ante, they consistently go missing. It's like they are all looking around for someone else to lead the way Where as the Doggies tonight were all about total team and getting the job done When the game was there to be won, the Bulldogs stood up whilst the Blues looked on