Jaded No More

Yze_Magic, get your damn hand off it. How can you give Sylvia more votes than McLean and Garland? He kicked 3 goals, and missed 2 seaters. Big deal. Yes he was good but if it wasn't for McLean's 9 clearances Sylvia wouldn't have got a single possession. McLean, Garland and Warnock were the standouts today. Colin Garland is awesome!

From where I was sitting it felt as though the crowd was split 50-50. Melbourne supporters certainly turned up. Not a chance this [censored] is going to take the game off us because we fell 400 short of 60,000.

Ch.10 said Moloney had a wrist injury. Rivers looked to have re-injured his hip. Would someone please give him a break!!!

Very strange that Nathan Brown didn't make the team, but some other ordinary players did. In all my time watching the MFC, few players have shown as much passion or dedication as Brown has. He is really someone who embodies what football, and indeed our club, is all about. Very surprised he didn't make it but someone like TJ did.

I want this club to be successful and to grow as much as any of you, and I respect Jimmy's contribution to both our club and the community, but I am terrified that we are losing a business-savvy president for someone who has little understanding of how a multi-million dollar organisation needs to be run. I will support whoever is in charge of this club, but this might not end up being the fairytale that some people are hoping for.

That is gold! The three evils of the world Sounds like it was a fantastic night. It's great every once in a while just to reflect on the fact that our club has created an Australian tradition that is now an integral part for so many Australians' lives.

Bell might be struggling for form, but Bell has NEVER shown anything but 100% commitment. And if Yze, Bruce and White are getting a game this week, Bell is not the only lucky one.

Don't tell me Colin Sylvia has taken out an AVO against Yze_Magic....

Fair enough. In 2 years Rivers has been mostly injured, and Davey mostly disappointing (recent form aside). I still would rather keep them both ahead of Sylvia or Green. Sylvia has done nothing and Green won't be around in 5-7 years time. Our window to trade him is running out. Rivers is still young and trading him could be an option in one or two years as well, especially if we're traveling well and we are desperate for an early pick (Sylvia may not be at the club in 2 years the way he's traveling). We'll have 3 picks inside the top 20 as it is, another one would be great but not completely crucial. There is absolutely no guarantee that a top 10 pick will yield the superstar you crave for. At least I know that Rivers will be, at the very least, serviceable for the next 10 years. I would also love to try him as a forward before we decide to put him on the market. If a club offered us a top 10 pick for Rivers then it would be irresponsible for us not to look at a trade. Anything outside the top 10 is not really worth the risk IMO, especially if we could get a top 20 pick for trading less valuable players. Again, this all comes down to which clubs end up with early picks, whether any of them are willing to even contemplate parting with it and what we think we can get with another top 10 pick. Put it this way, if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't want my club trading away a top 10 pick for someone who has OP and is apperantly slow (although I completely disagree that this is a weakness of his). At the moment I believe that Rivers is more valuable to our club than to other clubs, as opposed to someone like Travis Johnstone who was never going to do anything while at the MFC. Maybe the same is true for Sylvia too.

Is Davey an A Grade footballer, even though he's done nothing in finals yet? I would rather offload a young player such as Sylvia or Bell or Dunn or even Green and combine that with a pick in the 30's and see if anyone will give us pick 19/20/21/22 for that. Maybe they won't, maybe they will. But if Brisbane were willing to give pick 14 for a 27 year old, lazy, underachieving, injury-prone Travis Johnstone, why can't we get a top 20 pick for Green? or for Jones? Our list management of previous years has been deplorable and has got us to a stage where our senior players are worth nothing. 2 years ago we would have easily got a top 20 pick for Bruce. Yze too perhaps. Now the only players worth anything are those we are not willing to part with. It's a very difficult thing, deciding what would be more benefitial to the club in the long term, trading an established player for a speculative draft pick, or holding on to the few players you have who you know can cut it at senior level. It's also hard to sit on your hands and do nothing when you're sitting pretty on the bottom of the ladder. But I look at clubs like Collingwood, who rarely trade away their core group (Tarrant aside), and just use whatever picks they have and develop them. And they always seem to be thereabouts. I'm sure Geelong was tempted in 06 to trade quite a few of their players, including Mooney and Johnson. They didn't and it payed off. I certainly don't envy our coach or the football department. Deciding who to keep is going to be almost as hard as deciding who to throw out. Any chance a stupid club like Freo will give us a first round pick for Michael "MOTY" Newton?

I never advocated trading Rivers or Davey. I was just asking those who believe it will take us 7 years to be a realistic chance at a flag, why we should keep Davey and trade Rivers (both around the same age, both extremely important to our structure). If the club is planning for a flag in 2015, then we can trade a number of players who will be in their late 20's or early 30's by the time we're ready to challenge, and who will most likely not be getting a game or influencing the results of a match by then. We could probably trade McLean who definitely won't be any faster in 7 years too. Thankfully I doubt very much that the club plans to be unsuccessful for another 7 years. It might take us that long to win a premiership, but it is certainly realistic for us to play finals in 2010 and when you're playing finals you want the likes of Davey, Rivers and McLean by your side because anything can happen in September. And while I completely support the need to get another first round pick, it cannot be done at the expense of some of our most important players structurally (it's not as if we are blessed with smart defenders), because odds are, whoever we pick up could very well end up another Luke Molan and then we traded a valuable commodity for a dud. Besides, I think it's too dangerous to plan so far into the future in AFL, because honestly you just never ever know what will happen. Of course you have to keep topping up your list with talent, especially when you are on the bottom of the ladder, but whatever talent you acquire should compliment the talent you already have, not be at the expense of it. Rivers is one of the few footballers in our club who has both a football brain and beautiful disposal.

Well Davey and Rivers are around the same age, but you don't think Rivers will be a contributing member of our side in 7 years, so why would Davey? A couple more bad hamstrings, or heaven forbid a knee reconstruction and his best attribute will be gone. He won't be running them down from behind in 7 years.

So Davey will still be a vital part of the team in 7 years when we're ready to challenge for the flag?

No Newton... the mystery continues.

At least Jamar makes a physical contest in the middle. That's more than we can say for either White or Yze. Either way, he is named in the squad, so we'll see what happens.

Amen Rhino, amen. Give a kid the opportunity to experience the great atmosphere of the day and stop rewarding senior players who are not pulling their weight just because of their past glories. That goes for Bruce too. His disposal and decision making are now a liability. The minute our kids start carrying our senior players, you just know something is wrong. I rather see Jamar drop 10 sitters, than Yze toe-poking his way through yet another game.

Just because a player is surplus at one club, doesn't mean they are not good enough to become a core player at another club. Still, I agree that we probably wouldn't get a top 15 (or top 20) pick for Jones. So you ask which player would get us a first round pick? I would say Davey, McLean, Rivers, probably Morton (not that he could even be traded) and Bate are the only players we may get a top 15 pick for. However if the draft is as good as everyone says, we might struggle to get a top 20 pick for anyone. The thing is, you have to look at which teams are on the verge, or around the mark, and what they are looking for. Davey would be happily welcomed at Geelong and Sydney. The Dogs will probably love McLean to replace West and Bate as a tall forward target. Who would realistically give us a top 20 pick for Rivers? Probably Adelaide, except they will not part with their first round pick, and their second round pick will be a late one given they'll finish in the 8 or maybe even in the top 4. At the end of the day it all comes down to perceived value versus actual value. I still can't believe we got pick 14 for TJ, but I'm filthy that we gave Thompson away for pick 12 (although we weren't in a bargaining position on that one). If we get a top 30 pick for Bruce I'd be over the moon, but anything higher than pick 10 for Rivers would be criminal and I just can't see any club parting with a top 10 pick for a player that has struggled with injury for over a year now. We need to look at other avenues, perhaps trading a mid-aged player (Green?) plus our second round pick might get us a top 15 pick? I mean the Lions were crazy enough to give us pick 14 for a lazy, injury-prone, mid-age player. Green is a lot more stable, more versatile and less of a tool.

I want to see a premiership before I go overseas to work dammit! But seriously, Port had a really quick mini-rebuild and they played in a GF last year. Brisbane, god knows how, but they are slowly coming back. We could easily be playing finals in 2 years, and when you play finals, anything can happen. Fine ok, I'm delusional.

I completely agree with that, and some people are delusional if they think that we'll get a top 10 pick if we trade Sylvia or Bruce. However, I think we need to look at trading our surplus. I love Jones, he's great, but if we lose him we still have McLean, Moloney, Valenti and maybe even Grimes. So assuming we use his pick on a dud, the net loss won't be too great. Question is, can we get a top 15 pick for Jones? At the end of the day we have to be smart about which young player we choose to trade because our perception of how long it will take us to rebuild and be in premiership contention could prove to be wrong. We could be in contention within 2 years, or it could take us 8 or 10 years. If it's going to take us 10 years, we can easily trade away Rivers, McLean, Davey and so on because they won't be around to witness a flag anyways. However if we manage to perform a much quicker turnaround (and in reality we've started our rebuild at the end of last year), than trading away a player whos qualities are unique, could really hurt us. That's why trading someone like Rivers really does scare me because you just never know where you'll be in a year or two.

Bell very much remains one of my favourite players, however I am not completely blinded by my love for him and nobody comes ahead of the MFC. If we can get a good draft pick for him, then I think it would be to our benefit to take the deal. Bell will be a serviceable player for us, and if he stays I'll be thrilled, but I'd be even more thrilled if we got a good pick for him and used that pick to get a key forward or a pacey midfielder, which right now we are desperately in need of (more so than a player who carries Bell's attributes). Robbo has been my favourite player for 10 years, but had we traded him last year for a good deal I would have accepted that and moved on. Not because I'd enjoy watching Robbo in a different jumper, but because at the end of the day the club has to do whatever it can to move the list forward. Bell could be an integral part of a premiership team, and his form last year showed that he is capable of being a very good player, but at the same time he is not irreplaceable and his form right now does not justify putting him on the 'untouchable' list. When you're on the bottom of the ladder with 1 win and a miserable percentage, you really need to drop the sentiments and have a good hard look at who is dispensable and which player offers a market value that is equal to or greater than the value they provide to the team.

Jones is the type of player that any good midfield could use. The problem is, that we don't have a good midfield. Cameron Ling is slow, but is a premiership midfielder. Brett Kirk's disposal is ordinary, but he is a premiership midfielder. What separates us from the likes of Geelong and Sydney (besides the fact that we're terrible and they're not), is that they have Goodes, and they have Ablett and amongst all that midfield class there are the hard-working, not terribly quick, not terribly gifted footballers who earn their keep because their bread and butter is to get clearances and be on the bottom of packs. They are not there because they can break the lines with pace, or hit a target 76 meters out on their non-preferred foot. So in a way, Jones is a victim of the crap he is surrounded with (and so are most of our kids), but if you look at it from a different point of view, we really can't keep carrying McLean, Jones, Moloney and Valenti on our list when they are all the same type of player, and when they all require a top quality midfield around them to perform at their best. Breaking it down, you keep McLean because of the 4 mentioned he is the best 'outsider' of the lot, meaning his disposal is very good most of the time. Of the rest, Jones stands out because he is a proven clearance winner, but unless he can reinvent another dimension and become a goal-kicking midfielder, or alternatively improve his disposal dramatically, he may just become dispensable, or worse, a depth player. Fortunately, I think he is capable of taking his game to another level and become an invaluable asset to our midfield, especially if one day he finds himself surrounded by a classy midfield.

This is what happens when, instead of listening, I read Demonland in class

As you said, his disposal has always been rather average, however this was not so much an issue when surrounded by a really strong group of midfielders. However, as I understand his knee injury has caused a permanent loss of cartridge, which reduces the strength and mobility of the knee. I think that could explain to a degree why he is getting caught so often and why his speed seems slightly reduced. He certainly doesn't change direction as well as he used to in his first season. Time in the VFL to gather some confidence in his knee and possibly work on his skills in a less pressured environment could really help him.

Our players wouldn't know a leader if he smacked them in the head. Seriously, look at who made it into the leadership group (Bruce, Yze) and who didn't (Green, Jones, Rivers). This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

The Herald Sun's credibility is up there with Jeff Kennet's. The idiot who wrote the match report probably looked at the stats and listed the top 5 possession getters in the best. Statistics don't impress me, when I go to games and see with my very own eyes the number of poor decisions made by senior leadership. The number of miss-kicks, the number of dodgy handballs that result in teammates being driven into the hard turf of Telstra Dome. Jeff White is up there for hit outs this year, and yet his output this season has been pretty unimpressive. Garland probably only gets a handful of possessions a game, but has only conceded 8 goals this season. So you tell me just what the stat sheets really tell us. As I said, Bruce certainly racks them up. There is never and has never been an issue of him not finding the ball. And he has fantastic endurance, which allows him to run all day. Again, this has never been in dispute. However, his skills are just not up to scratch, and if it's ok for supporters to blast the likes of Miller, Jamar, Bell and Bartram, who combined have played less games than Bruce, than why shouldn't we raise this issue when it concerns Bruce? As the captain of this football club it is his responsibility to lead the way with his attack on the ball and his disposable. Statistics won't show you that when we're struggling, Bruce is not found on the bottom of packs getting the hard balls. Statistics will show that yes, he got 21 touches today, but let me tell you his influence on the match equaled that of the umpire of gave Luke Ball 7 free kicks. I saw it with my own eyes, and the dozens of Melbourne supporters around me felt the same way. At his age, he is unlikely to ever part-take in an MFC premiership, and it is therefore time to cut our losses and move on. Having said all that, he is certainly not alone in the 'move on' basket.