P-man

No doubt (although I'd question the value of the B&F last year considering the competition..winning second prize in a one man team). Just an observation that his poorer performances tend to escape criticism compared to Watts, Trengove and others.

Again, Gibbs has the tools to be in the top 50 and Mike is predicting he will take that step this year. Danger will absolutely cement himself as a top 10 player this year.

The thing with the list is that it's a prediction of the top 50 players for 2013, but based on 2012 form. So it's a strange mix, but still needs to be viewed as purely a prediction. Whose to say Dustin Martin won't jump back into the top 50 players in the comp? He has the ability to do it, it's just that when you base it on 2012 form, it becomes a bit iffy.

Did very little it has to be said. Seems to escape the blowtorch on here does Grimey, compared to many others.

Agreed. It was evident in the Saints match that there was a bit more diversity in how we took the game on. We weren't just bombing it long as plan A without a plan B, or immediately going to the boundary. Players were lowering their eyes and being provided with leads. There was an actual willingness to use the corridor, shock horror, which we have in fact seen throughout the NAB.Bottom line is we had more disposals than the Saints. Never would have believed that to be the case. If we can actually use the ball through the middle this year, that in itself will be an improvement. All that said, I have definitely fallen for Dunny's torps. They are brilliant.

I agree with his Top 8, albeit not the order. From there onwards it all gets a bit...Mike-ish.

This is an excellent comparison which I hadn't really thought of. He definitely has a lot of Jared Brennan about him in that context. I won't stick a fork in him til midway. through the season. Certainly his performance against Port alluded to the same old Sylvia, but there were some very positive signs out of the Saints match. Tragically I think it's correct that he is just isn't a great midfielder, as much as we need him to be.

How do you solve a problem like Col Sylvia? How do you catch a cloud and pin it down? How do you find a word that means Col Sylvia? A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown! Man, I need sleep.

Absolute domination in that first quarter. The only time the Saints got any momentum was from a cheap or dodgy free, and their only goal came from a simple turnover from Jones' boot, of all people. A couple of Hogan marks not paid too. You add a couple more goals and the deficit created in the second quarter would've been alot more manageable. If we can play like that for four quarters we'll compete with most teams. Also, Rodan, wow. More of that this season thanks.

I hate to be one of those types that harps on about 186, but an extraordinary result like that points heavily towards what tim mentioned: no real leaders, poor culture, limited talent and limited experience. Even if you buy into the "protest performance" theory, that is till an indication of shocking culture and disunity. The major problems began with recruitment. Far, far too many duds.Time will tell how much of an improvement Neeld and staff will be in that regard but the early signs are that Toumpas, Hogan, Kent, Terlich and M Jones should all be wins. I was against the selection of Rodan but it could turn out to be an inspired selection. If Dawes fails that will reflect poorly, but the move certainly showed balls. Whether Neeld can coach at AFL level is still to be determined, but he was definitely coming from a very low base.

Honestly, I think we can quickly catch up to North and Richmond. They are well drilled and work better as a team, but their lists aren't as great as their own fans seem to think. They remain very top heavy in terms of talent. But you're right, they are in the frame as well. GWS can field a 22 comprised of Top 20 picks. That's just ridiculous.

Given the first rebuild was an utter failure, one of our big issues now will be timing. If we're being honest, we're a few years away from thinking about finals football, let alone premierships. The development of GWS, Gold Coast, and to a lesser extent Port and Brisbane means any premiership window we enter will likely coincide with theirs. If we are reaching our peak at the same time as GWS, with their list, good luck to us. For this reason we need to fast track the development of our players as much as possible.

And at 66% over the weekend. Is that good enough coming out of the back half? Debatable, but he does turn the ball over under pressure and at critical times. When we talk about our kicking needing to improve, Nicho is on the list. I'm not saying he's no good, merely that I'd have Jetta ahead of him based on progress made.

Ben - you're smart enough to realise that when you assume the role of pompous arse, you're going to attract your fair share of attention and detractors. So you can save the "everyone snipes me" card. Stu - you don't help the situation by consistently goading and making derogatory comments to every single one of Ben's posts, like in this thread. I enjoy both your posts but C'MON fellas, it's not kindergarten.

The sexual tension between you two is palpable.. Agree with Benjamin re Blease's role. He becomes much more of an asset through the midfield with his speed and disposal. Still needs to add a bit of bulk. Blease will be a long term quality player. Hell, even David King rates him, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't rate any of our other players aside from Mitch.

For someone whose been under a rock for 2 years you seem to know alot about the burden on Clark and the 2012 form of Dawes.. Rest assured, our forward line will be alot better this year for the very thing you point out - the entire burden will no longer be on Clark with the injection of Dawes, Pedersen and the surprising form of Sellar. Big bodies who can at the very least bring the ball to ground for the likes of Howe, Byrnes, Kent, Rodan, Davey and Blease to have an opportunity to capitalise. Blease I see as more of an outside runner but he will still be a weapon in front of goal. Dom Barry was drafted to fill that small forward hole long term. I also think Howe could take his game to a new level beyond highlight reel specialist this year. That's my hope.

The fact his kicking is not above average. It's in fact below average. Competition for a spot is a good thing but Jetta is ahead of Nicho for mine. He is going to be one of the big improvers this year.

Garland Frawley McDonald Watts Dunn Jetta Magner Jones Grimes Howe Clark Sylvia Byrnes Dawes Sellar Foll: Jamar, Trengove, Viney I/C: Rodan, Blease, Kent Sub: Toumpas Emerg: Davey, McKenzie, Terlich, M Jones, Tapscott Pretty much based on consistency of performance in the NAB and ability to hit a damn target. Magner is the exception to the latter rule but he knows how to find the ball, something we desperately lack. Davey and McKenzie are highly likely to get picked but I wouldn't have them in my starting 22 at this stage. I acknowledge it's a risk having neither Tapscott or McKenzie who provide some much needed grunt in defence so Jordie slots in if Trengove is still not right. Likewise Tapscott or possibly Davey for Blease. Terlich unlucky.

Ben, you provide interesting input here but you are also the first to throw around the label of "footy stupid". Indeed few seem to meet the bar that you set. Yet when someone says we've done nothing to address the forward line or questions where effectiveness might develop, which flies in the face of the facts, you call it a good post?

I kinda feel like I'm pointing out the obvious here but yesterday we were missing our two key talls in Clark and Dawes. You throw those two into the forward line and the conversion rate from going inside our attacking 50 yesterday starts looking alot healthier. You fail to see what the club has done to address its forward woes? Really? So recruiting fairly big names in Clark and Dawes isn't enough, nor is using a number 3 draft pick on one of the most promising young key forwards to come through the ranks in many a year in Jesse Hogan, nor is what looks to be the handy acquisition of Dean Kent who as a medium forward is already showing he has the ability to impact the scoreboard, nor is the recruitment of mature players in Byrnes, Rodan and Pedersen, all of whom are there to address last year's issue of lack of scoreboard pressure. What more do you suggest the club does? The forward line is not the greatest issue, not even close. In fact it's fair to say that a forward line with Clark, Hogan, Dawes, Howe, Kent and Barry could eventually become the envy of the competition. The issue has been the midfield for some time, and it will continue to be until the youngsters can develop and one or two more A graders emerge or are acquired externally.

Disagree on both counts. The modern game pretty much requires a second ruck who can go forward and kick goals and Martin can be that option. Competed extremely well inside 50 tonight, and actually took one of the best contested marks I've seen in this NAB Cup. Admittedly at 26 you have to wonder how much more improvement is in him, but he strikes me as a late bloomer just entering his best period. His athleticism for his size is pretty remarkable and if he can just get his radar for goal sorted, look out. I was sorry to see him go and that hasn't changed.Beamer I couldn't care less that he's gone. Spat in the face of every supporter with his piddly efforts of last year and strongly suspect he wasn't the greatest influence in the change room. That said, he has shown in this pre-season what he is truly capable of, winning alot of contested ball and working hard all over the ground. At his best, he's a sizeable loss, no doubt.

We gave him away for peanuts and I still believe it was premature. Who would you prefer as a second ruck option out of Pedersen and Martin? I know what my choice would be.

Stef Martin looking good for Brisbane, for all the masochists.

Who is being "stupidly harsh" on Hogan and Toumpas? The worst I've heard said is that they have things to learn.

Okay, I'm going to assume you did actually watch the game in order to create a thread about his performance. 1. It's third round of NAB Cup. Where he's at is a practice match. 2. He suffered a nasty knock last week from which he is possibly still feeling some effects. 3. We have so many greater concerns than Frawley, who remains our best defender. 4. If we're going to dwell on today, how many goals were actually kicked on him?