Adam The God

I don't believe Goodwin's career and Smith's contract have to be tied to each other. I think Smith's recruitment could be good whether Goodwin keeps his job or not.

Is Tom staying or are we trying to get more value out of a trade deal for both parties?

I'd say we wanted Yze, Voss and Leppitsch. Reckon we'll get at least one of them.

I could agree with these points. Though I'm comfortable enough with Harmes' contract, though a 4 year deal would have been sufficient. We have no idea whether that was front or back ended or what type of money that was though. Disagree with these points. RE: Lever and May, we had to build our midfield first, which took 2014-2016 and then we went after Lever and May. You can't just bring in your whole squad one time. That's fairyland stuff IMV. It takes time. Did we overpay for Lever and May? Maybe. But you have to in order to get good players in the door. RE: Tomlinson, I don't recall him being beaten when he went back to defence. Turned out to be a very good move. We also have a guy who can play wing, ruck or half forward if we need. He's a flexible signing and we're not absolutely sure we paid the world for him. Does this mean we can't go after another defensive option? No. Disagree about our list management. As mentioned, I don't think you can do it all in two to three years. It takes time. May has at least another 3-4 years, as does Max IMV. But I agree that I want us to attack trade period hard and would be willing to give up a good midfielder and a good pick for a player of Merrett's calibre and what he'd offer our midfield. This year was ultimately a failure, but anything less than top 6 next year will be a failure too. I expect us to be around that mark next year, provided we can stay fit, add the players we need to this off season and keep Burgess or get another comparable fitness boss. In poor old Demonland's defence, I don't think anyone is saying it was acceptable, just that we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either. From what I've heard, Saad was way out of our price range. I don't want to compromise Oliver, Petracca and anyone else we may want to sign moving forward by signing a zippy half backer on bigger dollars than either of those guys. Ridiculous. We put our offer in and it wasn't high enough. We move on. If this is aimed at me, I agree. We need to be successful and at the very least, that means playing finals regularly, otherwise we'll shed important players and go backwards. Once again, you're dismissiveness towards "many on here" is overplayed and hyperbolised. As if it's invisible. There's a difference between being hysterical, which this post borders on and being aggressive at the trade table. The latter is perfectly reasonable and what we should doing. Smith is definitely one I'd like to bring across.

We're saying just about the same thing mate, but I'm saying he's elite already. I just think it's the difference between A grade and A+ grade.

Totally agree, mate. It's why I was harsher on Max this year too. I just don't think we're getting bang for our buck from him, given he could barely get off the ground in the second half of the year. As you say, our defence is solid, hopefully we can add another winger or two to compliment Langdon and fix our midfield and I completely concur. Top 4 is a reasonable aim. I'd be spending big on a midfield coach, get Yze to look after the forwardline or strategy, and look at two others and Stafford being the ruck coach and that's it. I wonder if Stafford is an issue?

I think coaching does play some part in maximising Oliver's dominance though. The fact that he, Petracca and Viney were all dominant contested ball winners this year and we often lost overall clearance, means that our coaching is not good enough in that area of the ground IMO. I think a new midfield coach will take Clarry to another level.

He is top 5 now. He doesn't need to dominate finals to be a top 5 midfielder. That's not a good argument. I think the "driving with my legs" and "[setting] up a few more attacking plays" are the things Oliver needs to and will work on, but consistency IMO isn't one of them. As @deanox's excellent post above highlights, Oliver's consistency and level for a player of his age is unmatched. I'd say Oliver is comfortably A grade, even on the cusp of A+ grade, but will walk to A+ status if he can hit the scoreboard more/get involved in scores from clearance more and accelerate out of stoppages more consistently.

I hope we've put a 5 year extension in front of Oliver. If we haven't, we're asleep at the wheel.

On the surface it's one year too many, but I would have thought we'd front load at least the first 2-3 years quite heavily. I like that he's signed from a culture stand point. I remain staunch in my belief that he needs to play forward or defensive mid/tagger. I'd be happy if he was collecting 15 possessions a game as long as he's mauling the opposition in the tackle count and making the right decisions when he does win the ball. My best 22 would have him starting in the forward pocket alongside Pickett and Weideman.

Let's say Cripps, Walsh and Williams were to play mid together (and I'm not convinced Williams will), they've got Curnow as well and that's about it.

Unless they see it as a chance to rebuild, but they'll want more than we can likely provide them.

I'm just trying to work out when we'll be able to get a deal done for Merrett. ;)

Listen to Patches when he posts. ?

My whole point was that they have an ordinary midfield. As we say on Demonland, midfields win premierships, not spines.

Disagree. If we've got Swiss cheese holes, they've got a hole right down the middle of a sandwich. Their midfield is essentially one player.

On ya, Coq. Well done, mate. Join the book nook with myself and @Moonshadow. Moonie will give you a pair of glasses upon entry.

I reckon they're massively overspending on guys who aren't core members of the team. If they were spending big and bringing in the likes of Patrick Cripps, sure, but they're spending massive dollars on half forwards and half backs. They are still yet to address their midfield. What happens when Charlie Curnow makes it back (if he does)? Where do they find the money to pay him? How do they find the money to fit in another midfielder or two that they desperately need? Carlton have a good spine, but their midfield is weak and unless they vastly improve this, they won't win a flag.

I reckon we shifted gear a while ago.

I wouldn't trade if it meant tearing at the fabric of the club, I guess I make it as a purely hypothetical observation. I still remember Max being beaten up by Port in Round 1 of 2019. It didn't seem like he was the cultural or spiritual leader there. This isn't a knock against him, just a knock against the idea that everyone follows his lead and we'd be nowhere without his leadership. I'd debate that, even from the outside looking in.

I'd do the future trade 1st trade. We'd probably need to throw in a second rounder too.

One of the gronky Facebook pages is reporting Oliver is disappointed with finishing 5th in the BnF and has therefore requested a trade. Utter rubbish from the Member's End, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

Jet on both sides of the body. He actually moves a bit like Oliver IMV. Doesn't have that same burst from stoppages, but very smooth mover. Would love him in our midfield.

I like the idea of bringing in outside depth. We're not sure if Baker will make it, so we need to be looking at the Polec's, the Smith's and anyone else that can provide run and carry, and good foot skills. Likewise with the forwardline, we need to be target someone that can provide Weideman the support he needs, because I don't think we can trust McDonald to get his body right. I'd be fine with bringing in 5 or 6 blokes from other teams and maybe 2 or 3 draftees. The core IMV that has had the continuity (and needs the continuity) you refer to is the midfield and the backline. Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Langdon have now had at least a year together (in the case of Langdon) and many more in the case of the other guys. Lever and May have played a whole season together. I like Tomlinson back there with them. Rivers gets another pre season under his belt, as do Pickett and Jackson. Add in Polec, Smith, Ben Brown and two more draftees and I think we'll be able to balance continuity with depth and improvement across all lines. In other words, I reckon we need to be pretty active, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

I think Weideman tired. I thought the last stretch of his season was horrible, but the short turn arounds and the lack of KPP support have to be considered IMO. I'm frustrated by his slow development and sometimes he is too easily pushed under or off the push still. I think he's on the right track though. Adding Brown would take the pressure off Weideman and enable Jackson to roam. That is very enticing.