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Don't know titan. He seems to ahve been used this way throughout his time at Sandy - at least i remember seeing him ruck and play KPB. I think that he'll end up being a Mr fixit for us but the weakness is as you called it - that he never learns to 'stick' one position much less three.

Geddy, I appreciate your frustration. I've asked relevant questions about his claim about Watts - that is the topic of this thread. He's not responded. In my last two posts I've given examples and he has responded by saying that he won't respond. So, he leaves me with few options - he ducks publically and avoids PM's. Jarka has me blocked, not the other way round. Jarka, to appease Geddy, why don't we stay on-topic. I've given example of Watts not being behind other "modern 1st picks". Any problems with what I've said on that issue?

Swampie, it is his flexibility and rate of improvment that facinate me - I overlook his kicking too much at times. I was just rapt with his efforts, applicaiton and outcome against the Bombers.

In his first year, Bryce Gibbs played mostly back pocket and was roundly taunted for being scared. Pagan did it to give him experience and not get him smashed. We've been nothing like this conserative with Jack when he' s played. Therefore, according to your own miserable pathetic half-baked load of donkey tripe argument, Jack is more developed that a modern 1st pick. The vairbe in question is 'ability to play his position'. Bang. POOF! And you entire argument goes up in smoke. But wait there's more. People have already compared Jack's stats to other KPF's drafted number of one or 1st round (or jbrown). Satistically he is little different. So on the 'output' measure we are all fine! Brendan Goddard to 4 years to (a) find a position and (B) lose the tag that he ducked his head. Jack has neither concenrn. Three example, three easy wins. Do everyone a favour, including that shattered stuffed toy you call a personality, and bury yourself. Go away Jarka. Don't stink up this site ywith you rambleing genrealations that you cannot support.

You have not answered my question. Try again. Sniping at me is just avoidant. If you cannot answer the question I've asked, stop posting. If you want to get bitchy, PM me. Answer the question or stop posting Jarka.

Jarka, you said Watts was behind a whole bunch of recent number 1 picks and I asked you to substantiate it and provide a metric that you used. You've avoided answering the question. The only logical undertstanding of that is that you do not know the answer. Answer the question. If you cannot, then do everyone a favour and shut up. As for wanting to PM me, you'd remember that I suggested that we solve our last dispute privately. You refused to actually discuss anything with a semblance of logic. And to let you know, you are not blocked and I have no memory of blocking you or taking the block off.If you want to finish this discussion without occupying others, then PM me - if not, I'll happily continue to discuss this publically. If you prefer neither option, stop posting altogether.

Jarka, who taught them that attitude? Maybe their parents and the generation of advertising execs that came before them - and corporate execs who made millsions spending money they did not have and until recently did not know that they could not afford? The generation game is simplisitic rubbish. Here is another example: if gen y kids get responsible (as is currently socially constructed) in their 30's, does it mean that they cannot delay gratification but somehow learnt to (which destroys the gen theory) or that a magical wand was waved?

Yeah, Stef's (thanks Freak - better not be wrong!) kicking is a liability - his flexibility betwen roles is his strength. He is hard to match up on when he goes forward. He has an annoying pace/height/body positioning ability that will work forward or back (and maybe in the ruck). nail the disposal (he onyl need to be steady and reliably steady) and that will be enough to complement (rather than undermine) his strengths.

Jarka, I've seen you evade my question and that's to be expected. I'll reword it. You have said that Watts is less advanced than lots (or most ,or to be fair, all) of other 1st picks. I asked you to give me a metric you were measuring him with (or against). I'll even give you a free hint - comparing him to a player is a proxy for comparing him to a standard, quality or variable. As for Freak being mo64's son , well that the funniest thing I've read in years. LMFAO! Sorry Jarka, I've just read the first page again, and realised that you have answered this. With absolutely nothing. Here's a hint - comment when you know and quesiton when you need to learn something. Right now you've got those backwards.

Nice, Jaded, nice. I think that the whole generation-judging thing is just simplistic meaningless bloody garbage. At 21 I did not understand 'process'. At 33 I'm getting the idea. What do you blame that on - my IQ, my generation, my upbringing the developmental process - what? Social commentators are the sound of one hand typing.

After all the frustration of last night, I was reflecting about Steph Martin. Here is a bloke who played KPB, KPF, Ruck and also was on Monfries at one stage (I think). I don't think I've seen a player used as much across so many roles in one game and I though the did bloody well. Given his realtive youth, inexperience (with footy in general and at AFL level in particular) and the speed of his improvements across the last two years, he may well develop into one of our most important players.

H, watching tonight's game led me to the same point. We don't need another KPF. Bater will be fine as 2nd or 3rd tall. BUT if we cannot get the ball through the midfield we are dead. And just getting one is not enough. I found Morton unconvincing last night. Being reliant on Davey for any zip or line-breaking is an ineffective strategy but it is the only one we have. Blease better be good, and he well might be. BUT in case he is not, then we'd get two this year. I went last night with ehe hope of a cheeky win - now I'm (feeling sick again) just looking for player development and for weekly losses.

I agree Clint. Not only his efforts for the footy but his movement around the ground and following of play. The notion that he is someone behind all the number 1's and by a significant margin is unsubstantiated rat faeces not only on the basis of what we've seen but also on the total lack of measuers- are we measuring 1st game or 1st season or first 50 possessions. or...or...or...

People who are questionning Green's courage should be banned because they are trolls. The evidence and arguments are now so convinceing that only a troll could deny it.

Very pleased with his debut. Get a few preseasons into him (and a midfield that can kick) and we'll have some real fun.

One poster at towards the start of this thread mentioned JBrown and his efforts. Watts is far behind - in what respect? Physical development? Reading of the game? Ability to play in the team? Ability to play his position? Ability to make decisions on field? Total developement relative to potential? Behind relative to midfielders or KPP draftees? Take your time. And Jarka, this had better be very good. No-one would want to see that you're using gross generalisations that you cannot substantiate.

Trying to not get excited about it. It is preety cool not only to see LJ take his place (all going to plan) but also to see so much of the future playing now. Huge story if this works out. Just huge.

I do not want to get distracted with a debate about the various merits and limits of IQ or intelligence testing in general or with footballers in particular. However I think the point that everyone has hit on is that one single factor is not important. Rather it is the way in which factors interact - effect each other - that is more important. These are hard to things to think through or even clearly articulate and so often come out in a 'feel' about things. However, the 'feel' is open to all sorts of biases and errors that make them unreliable - or perhaps partially reliable but you don't know when it is right or wrong. It is just such a challenging area - picking talent and development - and one that I am facinated by. Oh graz - I've never needed anybody's help in any way.

Issues about Bailey would and should crop up - we should keep watching him. As for whether he can coach, well, I wnder if you could already argue that Bailey has been more successful even in his short tenure at building a premiership side than Wallace was with the Tiges.

Excellent posts from particularly HT and Distance Dee. Great stuff both of you.

IN: kids who will have a go and get better OUT: the heartless bunch that sits in the'leadership' chair. FMD. The more I think about the game , the angrier I get. Normally I calm down. That performance stunk.

Deanox, for me this is THE most difficult question to ask and answer: who will develop, how much and over what period? Dunny was really good yesterday, but CAN he do this at AFL level? Jurrah was quietly BLOODY EXCITING -can he do it at AFL level? Miller worked his nuts off, provided a realiable target but did not convert well - he does this at AFL level.

Great stuff Jack. Cale 194 huh? It is my fervent hope that a few more years wil see him and Jackie boy creating a match-up nightmare for opposition coaches.

Deeoldfart - right on the money. Really pleased with green's form. Doing so many things rights on field. Cannot believe people have called him soft. Wonderful leadership regardless of not being captain.

It does not matter than he can kick goals. It does not matter a hoot. If he cannot give the right example about the most basic aspects of footy then a few goals is not enough to compensate. His output is low - just because it is better than anyone we have doesn't mean that we just cop it. Thanks for the memories Robbo, but I want no more of yours.