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At the ground I thought that Petterd had led to that spot first and that Miller saw the kicker head that way and decided to mosey on over. I'll have to look at the replay, but I remember commenting to my brother that I thought Miller had unnecessarily brought his defender nearer a contest that petterd had covered.

Gaunt, I don't think you are getting it. I'm thankful that Robbo played with us and sad to see him leave, BUT he's done with at the MFC. Junior arguably has more to give as captain (particularly the off-field stuff that we don't see or hear). I'm not strongly for or against him going.

Jarka, try addressing the content. You've argued that it is ok to abuse people if they are in public and earn money (and are young). You also say that words don't hurt people and yet you've run a mile from mine (suggesting that you really don't believe this and cannot live it). You've also sought to exploit/abuse players and your current argument is effectively a defence of that disgusting little effort. Not much there to be proud is there, really. I wonder if you'll bother speaking more garbage about how your behaviour is predetermined now? Are we really predetermined to be vindictive towards people for our own benefit? As for you Enforcer, maybe keep your power fantasies to yourself. You come one here under the name 'Enforcer" and accuse me of being 'princess'. Does that make you feel good - powerful - important? I hope that effort was worthwhile cause reality must bum you out big time. Enforcer - does your need to project an image of strength really need an audience? Couldn't you just mime some more and keep the internet out of it?

I think that we've got another three months of this stuff and most of it will come to naught.

I'll tell you about the hypocrisy of yours, Jarka. You are happy that footballers get abused because they earn money and should be tough enough to take it. You've asked mods to stop me posting in response to you - delicate little soul. Footballers can take it but you cannot. Maybe if you got paid more it would help? Do words really hurt so much? Mayube they hurt more impresonally than in-person? Wriggle out of that, why don't you? The fun part - the real kicker - is that last year, Jarka, you tried to insinuate that a current melbourne player had a mental illness. You did it only to get attention and big-note yourself. I reckon everything you've now written is nothing more than an attempt to justify your past behaviour with the flimsiest of arguments whilst also behaving in a hypocritical way. Nice. Really nice. Now tell me that your behaviour is all predetermined. Now back to the topic...I wonder if there should be an increased sense of responsibility over what we write? Free speech is one thing, but perhaps an appreciation for how it will be received is also not unreasonable. It might also force increased accuracy and sophistication (Jarka, you may notice that I've not derided your personal habits or lifestyle choices - see, it is possible!).

Can't really see what's wrong with what he said, either. Our second tier really has not kicked on. OUr kids are steady developers rather than 'breakout' performers.

I think BRFE's list is it - no need to submit it twice!

What crap. The footy world is supportive of melbourne losing because it is the only sensible long-term option for the club. As if higher rotations would have made a difference to the results anyway - seen our midfield and forward line lately?

We are the worst side in the comp and we are not 'tanking' nearly as much this game. BUT we are also missing at least 9 players that would be starting 18 if not in the 22. In no particular order: Jurrah green warnock rivers mclean garland wonnamaerri bennell jamar and we could also consider maric watts blease meesen mckensie strauss and that is not counting whelan, wheatley, bell and robbo.

I've read some of the responses and been forced to take a closer look at the question. The thread title, question of the pole and the options provided are not referring to the same issue. Indeed, options a and b are compatible if you get past the yes/no bit at the start. Winning a flag and fabric of the club are not mutually exclusive. Good thread regardless. The essence of a football club is the stuff hyphen and jack spoke about. A flag is the be-all-and-end-all for me as supporter, but all processes directed towards such fit in with that, s does the journey (points a and B) In my opinion, winning a flag is not the reason for a club's existence. Competeing to win is not the sole reason either. The reason is a complex socio-cultural one - 'reason for existence' must be considered as referring to the creation and maintenance. That question is not one about competing or success, but draws in much larger questions of society, power cultural position etc.

She was poor - the nasal twang, the delay, the wrong names. The best bit was when she commented that Geelong were playing as if it ws a training drill...only for them to turn the ball over on our 50m line. Said it all, really.

YM is a disgrace and should be banned forever. Brock has not improved in three years. Junior and Bruce have there best behind them. Bruce is still capable of very good play and displays it occasionally. Junior not so much. Club champs at their end. YM should be on his knobbly little knees thanking them for their service and willing sacrifice. Robbo is done, see above. And for all those fools thinking that we're great team waiting or that bailey cannot coach, today was a nice indication of what we need and why we cannot win. We do not have a midfield.

Why would you laugh at him. Hero. Write more numbers down and continue your role as prophet of the ridiculous and banal.

Great stuff Jack. Beautiful stuff.

Mr Morton - you know it; I know it; dozens of others know it...that it is still being discussed confuses me a great deal.

Great stuff Cameron Bruce. Congrats of getting the most out of your career to date and it is a long way from finished.

Christ! This is really simple. This is ALL about probabilities. Getting more talent = greater chance to have success. It is a nice, direct, straight positive relationship. Not complex. Our bottom 6 easily cut it with the best in the AFL. Our top six do not. Let's just fix it and move on. Anyone who thinks that the odd win at this point of this season is beneficial to anything other than a tiny unimportant feel good moment also belives in star signs and santa claus.

Ooze2juice, are you factoring in a series of 200 point wins? Our percentage looked pretty good in your model.

Wheatley I thought was poor today - lots of slow decisions and dodgy decisions and poor ball use.

H, he's got those attributes you highlight in spade. I watched a littel bit of the coverage yesterday and Phil cleary (SHUTUP) reported a conversation he had with CC. Phil reported that CC reported taht Jack has grown about 3 cms since drafting and put on 7-8kg and that the club could not be happier.

I find this whole thread somewhat absurd - both of these young men were drafted with a well-known set of strengths and weaknesses. WE'll need 5 years to tell who is a better play and how. What is more interesting is did they hold their relative value in terms of drafting position. FCS, give them time.

He has PJ for breakfast in every area other than kicking. Must must must improve here. Otherwise, I'm awfully happy with his on-field flexibility.

Clint, I think he does some things well, but his disposal can be unreliable, he isn't that tall, that quick or that tough - he's a bit of all but very good at none.

I find the whole notion that DB controls the ability of these 'core players' so much. I'm not sure how the coach can get them to not tackle, hit targets or be accountable...not sure at all. This all starts to smack of powers of control that no coach can. How the hell would you see Leigh Matthews or even better, Woosha? Now there's a bloke with the majority of his grand final wining team on the park and they produce efforts the likes of which are an out-and-out disgrace. According to your logic, Woosha has not only got his core playing well, he's then gutted them, singlehandedly. I just don't thinkt hat the coach has got that much power. Would you make the same call about clarkson - that last year he got teh core playing well but this year he hasn't?

I fear he'll be anther player that tears it up at VFL level but will struggle to transition to AFL level. That said, it is not as if he's been drowning in opportunity.