Vipercrunch

I hope you're correct, but we did still give 17 and 18 year old kids some of the more famous MFC jumper numbers. I would much prefer to hold those numbers back for 3rd and 4th year players who have truly become AFL players. Would it be a bad thing to give Toumpas and JV numbers in the mid 40's instead of 5 and 7?

Find any un-biased journo who suggests others were more blatant.... Perhaps you are correct, but while journos say others tanked, more often than not they go out their way to say we were the most blatant.

We haven't won anything for 48 years is because we seem to always want the easy way out. Tank now and the priority pick will lead our club out for the football wilderness. Wrong, wrong, wrong. We have a pathetic messiah complex.

Thats not the way I see it. For us to only just lose given the extreme list management we undertook is evidence that we really didn't deserve the priority pick the loss gave us. If we stuck to what I would deem normal list management, we would have won IMO. I don't know what Carlton did for those 11 losses, but the wholesale and inexplicable positional changes that we used against Richmond would be hard to beat. PJ on Nathan Brown? Hard to rationalise that one (but I am sure people will lol).

1. Each to their own, but given we undertook probably the most blatant and over the top "list management' in the games history in 2009 and then still only maganed to 'win" last place by a kick after the siren, I do not think we deserved the priority pick we received. IMO you can dance around with technicalities all you want, but it is no hollow charge. 2. IMO again here, but we did the wrong thing so we deserve to get punished. The back drop over precedence etc etc has and should mitigate the punishment but to continue to fight the likely outcome (we still await the officila verdict) is folly. We are pretty much a joke witht the public, and the only way to gain respect is to start doing the right thing for a long period of time. Journalists will go us because we have made mistakes. Caro has gone at us hard in part because we are weak and we did something she finds particularly vile. Don't get me wrong, her methods and language in some cases has often made me angry, but there is no conspiracy. She is having a crack at a soft target for doing something she really doesn't like. Heads down, work hard and let on and off field success do the talking.

I really liked the Jake Niall article too. Even down to his description of what we allegedly did wrong ('conspired to not win games'). I also liked that he put it all into some pespective against the current investigation into Essendon (Defcon one, in terms of potential fallout, compared with tanking's Defcon three). I'm hoping that this can all get sorted in the next day or too and we can put the poor decisions of 2008-2009 behind us. On a side note, I have HATED the sooking and complaining re: all this that has come from some of our supporters. If we keep playing the victim all the time we'll become like the Kangaroos in the 90's. Always went on and on about everyone being againts them. We did the wrong thing and we got punished. Now shut up and watch the football.

Not good. I hope whoever it is, is OK. Must be a serious one to bring an ambulance in though. Fingers crossed for a good outcome.

I think thats his best spot too. A game late-ish last year saw him playing that role particulary well, taking a lot of strong marks at full pace then delivering into the 50. Early Ryan O'Keefe kind of role.

I haven't read all of the 90 pages of this thread, but surely it's a long bow to suggest someones comments here are part of a ruse of the clubs defense? All this talk about activity in Demonland somehow being part of some board level power struggle or trying to out people from the club seems to me as ludicrous. Can't wait for the footy to start....

This bit made me lol. Some of you blokes must check under your bed for the boogie man every night too.

6 weeks today to go before our first NAB appearance. Looking forward to it to see if what we are gleaning from the training reports is as positive as some/most of us hope.

Last year - Fat bottomed Girls - Queen This year - Come out and play - Offspring

I addressed the likely outcome if things were as leaked/reported in my post. If what we think we know already is all there is, then this will flitter away early next year with no charges to answer. I was highlighting the folly of saying right now that we must fight all possible charges at all costs given we don't know 100% what evidence there may be. There is a possible outcome where the evidence is beyond doubt and that a court battle will do us no good at all. The whole situation has been a mess and if this does all turn to nothing I hope a journalist has the balls and nouce to find out why it leaked so badly.

Two types of list management. One where it is done not caring if you win or lose as a result. The other is where it is done deliberatly to make losing the most likely outcome. In the end it all comes down to what motives can be proven, which is what the investigation has been all about. Everyone could see the list management that we undertook. The investigation is to find out what our motivation was and then the outcome will be based on what motivation can be proved.

Yeah, i'm with jnrmac. Wouldn't that be considered draft tampering?

The international rookies don't take the place of any home grown players do they? They fit outside the cap and the normal list numbers as they are very experimental? Any player that falls into this catogory almost by default has no AFL background. The real factors are the cost ($$'s and time) to find and then develop them? I assume all clubs would do some looking (given how sometimes it can be successful), but I couldn't see melbourne in its current state putting too many resources towards it.

Should forward this email to Denham. Might help him understand what we are doing given he thinks we are just randomly calling out names and trading for whoever we can get.

/sigh I made the IF bold, italic AND underlined it and you still missed it. Only so much I can do. So "solid evidence that shows something beyond doubt" is not enough proof for a court....

My new favourite term for being fat.

Our decision whether we head to court should depend on what evidence the AFL have and what they intend to do with it. IF solid evidence exists that show beyond doubt that we "list managed" with the main purpose of losing games for better draft picks, then no court in the land will help us. IMO the "new, tough" Melbourne that I hope we now have would be far better served taking their medicine, putting their heads down and working through it. The is no use pointing the finger at other clubs about it like little kids either. The Ox sums up my thoughts exactly Schwarz, who played 173 games with the Dees, fears a heavy sanction could pose a serious threat to the club's future. "I, like anyone, hope it goes away, but something might come of it," Schwarz said. "Whatever it is, you just hope it doesn't hurt or cripple the club. That said, if individuals have done the wrong thing, then they have got to be held accountable." On the other hand IF the leaks so far is all there is (tongue in cheek comments etc etc) then I doubt the AFL will try to pursue it too far any way. There will be a bit of to and fro about it to ensure the case is seen to have run its course then it will be over. FYI - the rule in question is. "A person, being a player, coach or assistant coach, must at all times perform on their merits and must not induce, or encourage, any player, coach or assistant coach not to perform on their merits in any match - or in relation to any aspect of the match, for any reason whatsoever.'' - AFL Regulations 19(A5)

My hope for next year is whatever Greg Denham says would make him admit he has totally mis-read what is happening at the MFC at the moment PLUS some. Given his rants i wouls say anything above 6-7 wins would force him to eat his words. My expectation is 8-10 wins and no losses >75 points.

I've always liked what I've seen of Rodan from a distance, both on and off the field. Can't understand why he wasn't played more at Richmond or Power. Glad to have him on board. Seems a good person.

Sad to see him go. The treatment always sounded like a long shot. Any one else pick up the error in the article? Nice one Jon Ralph... "It will strip yet more valuable experience from the Demons list, with Brock McLean and Jared Rivers - the club's top-two finishers in the best-and-fairest in 2011 - already leaving the club as free agents." And please DO NOT give number 3 to one of our first year players. Make them earn it FFS!!!!!

A poor policy that was made even worse by poor implementation. Lame joke though. There will be much better ones coming our way I'm sure.

From the things I know him to have done, he is doing well. It is the things that some have alleged him to have done or been involved with that makes this poll premature imo. Until the investigation is over and we learn IF he was involved with tanking and if so, how much, then I can't answer.