donny williams no 25

Well, I'm sick of this bloody debate! I'm giving notice that I'm not trying until next year.[incidentally I think Holland DID play the last match as a farewell] If you believe that Board Members who feel as I do should be sacked, then prepare for some sacking, and start with the president.Try and tell me, if you saw him on TV last Friday night, that in the circumstances I've outlined, he wouldn't want MFC to knock out the Blues. Of course he bloody well would!The position would be so different to 2007 as to be incomparable. Let's assume [horror of horrors] that we beat the Swans. How do we avoid beating Freo? What if we win, say, 4 of the last 6, including against the Blues.This is not a short-term, useless gain. It's meaningful if Watts Jurrah Bennell Jetta Grimes, Cheney, Morton have had a few wins under their belt and believe that they can take on good sides in 2010. Yes, we only get 1 decent draft pick--yes we miss Scully--but there would still be a considerable upside. As to the financial situation, I can only say that you have no idea how bad it has been and how difficult it may be to get directors of a club which is arguably trading whilst insolvent. It remains a HUGE issue. And a move to Launceston would not change the number of teams--the Tassie Demons would simply take the place of our Demons and with a government guarantee. I acknowledge that the figures would be different if we went to G.C or West Sydney

Really? I could have sworn that Yze played the last match as a farewell. Didn't Holland do likewise?And I recall we knew it was Pickett's last also. Nothing wrong with playing retirees in the last match as a gesture--I don't treat that as tanking. Bode, Ward and Ferguson were still hoping. Of course, I accept what you say about White and Brown.

Neither selfish! nor short-sighted. Let me assure you of this; if the scenario developed and Melbourne had the opportunity to put the Blues out of the finals 90% of supporters and ALL players officials, coaches and presidents would want us to do everything in our power--pick the best available team and give it our absolute best shot--to do so. And if we succeeded, the improved profile of the club would help immensely next year. I don't think you stop to consider that ours is a year-to-year existence. One more bad year financially and you can look forward to our home games at Carrara ,West Sydney [great] or Launceston

so you just leave out a couple of our best players? Let me put this to you. It's R21 and Carlton are battling for a place in the 4 or bettter still, the 8. And Essendon and others are breathing down their necks. And we've got almost a full list to choose from[i accept several players are out for the season but they're not pivotal anyway] Wouldn't every Melbourne player, supporter, coach, official , to say nothing of our poor president, get the greatest lift if we could knock the Blues out of whatever spot they're hoping to achieve?And wouldn't the competition be buggered if Essendon and any other club wanting to get past Carlton, suspected that Melbourne were throwing the match? Remember, it could happen to us next year or in 2011. The integrity of the competition IS bloody important

Sorry Rhino--Bizzell, Yze and White WERE played at Sandy for much of their last few games at Melbourne. I can't recall so much about Brown who was playing very good footy. If Mc Lean is injured[and I understand he was close to our best v Pt Adelaide] yes, of course, I'd rest him

she was no worse than the rest of the team. Absolutely inadequate coverage including No mention of interchange players at the start of a quarter no mention of particular players coming off/going on no coverage of the MFC interchange bench--at one point Jetta[who played well early] was not seen for ages leading to our speculation that he was injured. By contrast we saw more of Matthew Stokes calves than is healthy! a concentration only on better known players whereas, eg Bartram had a good game but barely attracted a mention.

look, positions on the field don't mean much these days. How can they when anyone who kicks a goal is immediately rewarded by a nice sit on the pine.?I doubt that we can try Jetta in the ruck. Anyway, the team you've listed will beat Richmond, Freo and possibly North and Swans.That's one of the pluses/minuses of a relatively even list. I would prefer Newton to Robbo in any event at present. That's my point--absent the outright dropping of half a dozen of our best I can't see what list management tactics can be tried with the intention of losing a game

'Don't manage injured players properly? I absolutely agree that to play one's best players who may be struggling with injury, would be silly--send them away until pre-season. I would also agree that playing senior players who won't be with us next year would be silly--but who are they? Only the skipper?I doubt Wheatley will retire and neither should he. Robbo? Perhaps.Our position is entirely different to that which Sheedy was describing--they've always had heaps of old players at Essendon during Sheedy's reign [which I think was a largely unsuccessful reign having regard to the money, players and other resources at his disposal] Neither the sending away of the injured, nor the non-playing of the retirees is tanking. It wasn't tanking when chaps such as Bizzell, Holland Doggie Brown Yze or White were played in the reserves leading up to their retirement. But where does that leave us now? Who can be sent way injured or dropped because he's going to retire?[Apart from Junior] Can we simply announce that Green Bruce Davey Warnock, Jamar, Jurrah--and whoever else-- won't play any more this year? I don't think so. And I'm not ware of anyone playing at present who should be rested [for the remainder of the year] on health grounds. So Hannabal etc--don't just tell us of your most favourable outcome--tell us how we get there!For everone[i think] agrees that once the team runs out on the ground it must give it everything it's got.

Well root it, you're a ripper! A spot of surgery for a few of them eh? Just what do you have in mind-a vasectomy for a few to ensure that in 2012 they're not being kept awake at night, stomach tuck for Morton to ensure he doesn't develop a big gut,electric shock treatment for Col Sylvia so he can keep his mind on the job, a spinal stretch for Valenti to make him a ruckman/ Just who NEEDS surgery? Must say the tankers will be upset by the team announced for Saturday-the very game we need more taggers we bring back Bartram. Sounds about right to me!

Brown,Bizzell,White,Yze, Holland,Carroll--these were not the team's best players by the time they found themselves at Sandy. Several were hopelessly out of form ,others failed to get back after legitimate injuries. Who are the players , who played last Sunday, who could be compared with that bunch of over-the-hill players? I guess one could announce that as the skipper is not going to go on next year, he'll play, eg, this week or more likely at the G v Richmond but not thereafter. Without being unfair, that wouldn't weaken the team much. It's not tanking to not play those who are going to retire--but it's very different isn't it, to drop Davey Mc Lean Green,Bruce etc?And as we all agree [i think] that those who run onto the field must try as hard as they can, I doubt that much can be achieved. Anyway, perhaps we've done this topic to death. I'll conclude by saying that if, in R22, we can beat the Blues and perhaps knock them out of the finals, I won't be crying. Ansd as to another poster's comment re Jetta, a few weeks ago I would have agreed. I'm now not so sure

Ok, I've now read 'Top 6' and congratulate you for it. Perhaps our points of difference are not all great--I do agree that missing out on a priority pick would be a blow. Several of the leading 'top 6s' have a number of players within their best 6 who were , by no means, top draft choices. You will have superior knowledge as to some of these but Adelaide, Brisbane and Essendon appear to have significant numbers of mid-level draftees in their best players--perhaps it could be said that they don't appear to be potential premiers in the next 3-4 years, tho Essendonn would surely disagree.. I guess it's an issue of principle. I maintain as do many others that tanking, risk managemnent, etc is, overall, damaging to the club. I'm by no means convinced that Carlton will prosper by their 2007 actions, and without wholesale dropping of our leading players--which gives awful vibes to the majority of supporters who provide the dough which keeps the club alive--I can't see how the tinkering proposed by some, will make much difference. Sorry--we'll still win more than 4. Finally I think our potential 'top 6 list" is a bit wider than you suggested. I'm v keen on Frawley, indeed I think we have the makings of an excellent defence, with Warnock and Garland as well.Don't you rate Frawley?And I know the Club rates Bennell and now surely Jurrah. And by jove, I'm surprised at Jetta's progeress also. These last 3 really might have got under other Clubs' guards I suspect. Still, I'm grateful for your analysis

I'm happy to answer the question. Whatever/whoever Scully is he will not be the difference between a premiership and not a premiership.Last year Cooney had a great season and won the brownlow. But he couldn't get W.B up because of errors in team management over several years--an unwillingness to get, by whatever means, key position forwards or backs in an under-sized team. No one player makes that much difference. I do agree that it's the loss of a priority pick that may hurt us more. But let's introduce a note of practicality! In W.A Pavlich and Cox ARE injured. It's reasonable that they're not playing. What players could Melbourne REASONABLY omit for an extended period AND WHO WOULD HAVE A BIG DIFFERENCE--ENOUGH TO ENSURE WE DON'T BEAT, EG, FREO AND RICHMOND? Davey? I agree it would affect the team's chances, just as it would destroy his chance of a B and F award at MFC. Reasonable to ask that of him?Who else? Jamar--just back playing again. Bruce?Green--I can't see them agreeing to take a break. Robbo? In my view if Newton came in for him the team would improve! And even the tankers on this web-site [including you] seem to agree that once the team runs out on the ground, it must try as hard as it can. So, on 2 grounds, I disagree with you. First, I believe it's damaging to the club's OVERALL interests not to attempt to win every match. And secondly I find it hard to see how the machinations of the football staff can achieve much in Melbourne's case

I agree but for different reasons, perhaps, than yours. I think Newton DOES have ability. I think I'm right in saying he's played 2 games this year. The first was v Richmond--yes, I know they've proved to be no good--but Newton kicked 3 and missed a couple. He took a number of contested marks--more than any other player on our forward line in any match up to that point. Then he played in that awful match v Adelaide, missed a couple of chances and was dropped. The point is it's not a question of Newton v Jurrah. I prefer Jurrah up the ground a little. I think that Robbo is the bloke under question, and that our long term interests would be best served by giving Newton a few matches in succession at F.F

Well, picking up on the theme of another poster, what do you and Hannibal and all the other tankers, do for the next 7 weeks?. Surely you won't go to the footy! Indeed the MFC would prefer you not to I'm sure because there's nothing worse than Demon supporters barracking for the other side. And before you disregard this, just think of the possibilities that this debate will produce a huge financial loss over the next 7 weeks. Why on earth will MFC supporters turn up if the club is hoping to lose? I think Robbie Flower and Brian Dixon are right on the money--a club MUST be trying to win every time or its whole fabric can be destoyed. I'm not at all certain that Carlton are benefitting from their skulduggery, if indeed they engaged in it

You arrogant dill! Don't sit there insulting people. Old55 said "not getting him [scully] will guarantee that we won't win one [premiership]' You replied --'exactly" Really? I have thought about it and my view is that the difference between Scully and the next best midfielder available is likely to be bugger-all. All the evidence points to that conclusion as, in any draft, there will be a number of great midfielders. Another poster points out the value of gun mid-fielders in premiership teams and refers to Simon Black and his value to Brisbane.I agree, and Black was drafted at 30 something, Luke Power at 5 in the same draft

What--you agree that not getting Scully means that we won't win a premiership?That one player is SO MUCH BETTER than anyone else that he would make that much difference. What rubbish! How? Just spell it out in words of one syllable so that dumb-bums like me can follow it! Drop half the players?The young ones or the old ones? Tell the players not to try? Read what Schwab has says and tell us he's wrong about a losing culture. I blieve he's dead right.

Well thank God the senior people within the club have the correct attitude even if half the posters on this web-site do not! What about Jimmy Stynes?Can anyone think of a better outcome for him than a bunch of wins in thr 2nd half of the season?

This debate is absolutely debilitating! It must stop.Every time the team runs out onto the field, it must be trying to win. For anyone associated wsith the club to think otherwise is horrible--especially for the players. Quite simply, the value of an additional draft pick DOES NOT equal the damage done to a team if everyone is not trying to win. Some time next year or the year after, the value of closely fought matches which the team has won, rather than lost, will be felt. A losing culture is bad--very bad. Particularly when the team plays a side with ambitions for the 8 a win is incredibly important. And as I watched the last quarter my heart sank, knowing that half the posters on this site, would be gloomy rather than happy. It's terrible! To demonstrate how silly it's become, sitting in front of me in the W.C match was a chap who kept shouting out words to the effect that both teams were keen to lose, after a player from either side buggered up a particular bit of play. When Jones went back into the oncoming pack and got himself more or less temporarily killed, a number of supporters nearby gave this 'supporter 'a piece of their mind. Was Jones not trying? . Is there all that much difference between the first 5 in the draft? Look at Daniel Rich--did Freo do better selecting Hill instead of Rich?Would MFC have done a lot worse getting Rich instead of Watts? I suspect that over time we will think we did very well gaining Watts but the difference will be marginal. In the meantime allow our kids, both on and off the field to feel great when the team wins--wins have been few enough the last 3 years. One last point. A friend who supports Carllton gets cvery heated about the fuss over Carlton's loss to Melbourne R22 2007. Carlton tanking? He won't have a bar of it pointing out that Whitnall--former captain and big star for the Blues, took about 12 marks after leading strongly. He kicked about 3 goals 6 from memory, and Blues lost. And Whitnall was delisted! Whitnall not tring? Rubbish!

Johnson is a poor ruckman? I disagree entirely. Watch how often he gets the ball down to a team-mate. His 'taps to advantage' ratio [or whatever it's called] is quite high. It's remarkable that, eg, Ryder was thought to have beaten our rucks. The figures showed otherwise, and Johnson also had more disposals than Ryder. His stats WERE down last week but that's the first bad game [as a ruckman] he's played. And I agree with another poster. If we think Miller's not good enough, why not give Johnson an extended run at CHF. He's got all the attributes, can kick beautifully, and could do as Schwarz did and take the ruckwork on the forward line.Adds greatly to flexibility. I KNOW he's been played there from time to time--for about 5 minutes each time!

It's just a few weeks ago when we were marvelling at how well Johnson was holding up in the ruck--by himself. I recall he played very well v West Coast. He was part of a dominant ruck against Collingwood, tho he did make a number of disposal errors.He has talent. I wouldn't drop him As to Miller, again we've left him out when [as with the Collingwood game] it looks likely to be wet and heavy. Who's to play at CHF? Jurrah? In the wet?Don't think so. I couldn't see last week's match but thought Miller was ok against Essendon. He was, incidentally responsible for Watts' first mark and goal when Miller cleaned up half the Dons' defence to clear the way. Miller's precisely the type I'd like to see playing in the conditions I foresee for tomorrow and when a bullocking type on the forward line will be vital. I can see another game when we'll be lucky to score 8 goals

Well, by golly, your views and those expressing simiklar sentiment, irritate me enormously.I want to see the team win! I'm desparate to see them win, and so too are the kids on the list. And not just the kids--the mid-level players who may be quite good but inevitably look awful in a side losing each week--their entire futures are at stake. I think it's critical to morale and indeed integrity of the club, that they pick the best 22 designed to win a particular match. If this means playing Wheatley [3rd in last year's B and F] Newton and Dunn instead of, eg Watts Jetta and Morton, then it should happen. Everyone on the list is entitled to show what he can do and this means picking the team on form, not potential.The kids will get enough games this year to progress in any event.

Well, Footscray--now 3rd on the ladder, beat us by--was it 10 --points. Any lack of effort by anyone, young or old, that day?Or in the 2nd half against Hawthorn?We could have been slaughtered that day--last year we would have been. The fact is that as a season progresses young players will be found wanting, and although it's true a number of senior players were poor against C'wood, so also were many of the kids. After a week's rest we should expect better this week though I have suspicion we may have some illness in the camp!

Yes well you and the many others who agree with you, give me the bloody tom [censored]! The suggestion that players--any players --go onto the field hoping not to win, is repugnant. OF COURSE the players were hoping like hell to beat Collingwood. They will now evenly more desperately hope to beat the Dons. Perpetual losing is habit-forming and destructive, and potentially very good players may not show their true value. People often refer to the last game of 2007 when Melbourne beat Carlton, and the suggestion that Carlton were keen to lose. Well perhaps the Carlton admin were but don't tell me that Lance Whitnall was tanking. He took about 15 marks and repeatedly just missed shots from 50 metres plus. Then his contract was terminated. Had he kicked 3/4 more goals, Carlton might have won and he would have kept his contract. Reverting to Melbourne, if you wise guys are correct and many of our fellows are facing delisting, do you think that they are not trying to win? B-s! From every viewpoint we need a win.

for heavens' sake, who looks at the positions nominated?Completely irrelevant. Travis Johnstone started on the bench for half of his games and he was our best player in many of them. Lack of an experienced goal-kicker is a worry v the Saints. I'll be surprised if we kick 8.