ManDee

Sweets, I think his avatar is anonymous already.

Better the AFL give 3/4 penalties (18 months) in the hope that ASADA/WADA won't appeal. 1/2 strength or no penalties will have ASADA/WADA appealing in an instant, then taking it out of the AFL's hands. And ASADA/WADA will not be lenient, expect 2 years. IMO

Peterson [Pedersen] pedersen petersen peaderson paederson paedersen Edit:- Damn have a look at that! lower case is ok?

I would think anyone that signed the waiver would be in trouble. Also those involved in the implementation of the program. Edit: Also of note, I don't think it is possible in Australia to sign away your legal rights. Therefore if the program was illegal those that signed the waivers should still be able to sue.

What a bunch of pedantic (self censored) we are. Could we have a vote on guilty or not guilty?

Time, I have said it many times and attached the relevent ASADA clauses. NO PROOF OF TAKING ANYTHING IS REQUIRED TO BE PROVEN GUILTY. Think Lance Armstrong.

Not entirely, one of the excuses was that the product ordered was not administered as it was damaged or unsuitable for use. So if that product, presumably illegal was not administered they are still guilty. Other legal products or placebos may have been administered.

As I always say. When all is said and done there is a hell of a lot more said than done.

It's time (apt) when arguing terminology that we get things right. Posters keep referring to proof of what they took. That is not the level required. It is also what they attempted to take.

Sorry Binnie, but that is wrong. Attempted to take is guilty. Edit: They don't need to actually take anything.

Sasdee it is unlikely any proof exonerating the players could exist, their hope is that the proof of their guilt is weak. As an interested observer I think guilt is obvious, unfortunately there exists legal argument and degrees of probability of guilt. The all that smoke argument is good enough for me, the process is looking for a little bit more than just smoke. The players cannot deny or prove that the smoke does not exist. Let us hope that in the name of fairness, that cheats get penalised.

And the lawyers advice to date for Essendon, the players and Hird has been.......outstanding? Edit: If the players are stupid enough to undergo the Dank/Hird program without getting external advice then perhaps it was good advice to get the players to say nothing. One can only imagine how badly they would incriminate themselves if left to their own devices.

You think this is a democracy?

Congratulations, well done.

Only when he is alone, then only sometimes.

If Danks wanted to push back he has been given plenty of opportunity. I don't think he has anything which would help his case. At this point I think he is a loose cannon. Essendon probably have a few of those roaming around, ex players, ex employees, disenfranchised current players the list goes on. Self interest is probably all that is holding the ship together at the moment, but I imagine when it starts to really go pear shaped there will be missiles from all directions.

The media tends to be expedient when it comes to language and sometimes the truth. So, no is an expedient way of explaining insufficient or inadequate. In this case literally it could be misleading but contextually I think it is ok.

Binnie I think you are taking "no" too literally. If a record exists that they bought Thymo????? then records exist. The point is that the club were unable to tell what the players were given. So in effect no records if we presume a record is a medical record see :- Wikipedia:- The terms medical record, health record, and medical chart are used somewhat interchangeably to describe the systematic documentation of a single patient's medical history andcare across time within one particular health care provider's jurisdiction.[1] The medical record includes a variety of types of "notes" entered over time by health care professionals, recording observations and administration of drugs and therapies, orders for the administration of drugs and therapies, test results, x-rays, reports, etc. The maintenance of complete and accurate medical records is a requirement of health care providers and is generally enforced as a licensing or certification prerequisite. If that is a definition of a medical record it is fair to so no records.

From :- http://www.afl.com.a...-of-charges.pdf By reason of the matters referred to in paragraphs (a) to (o) above: (i) players were administered substances that were prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code; alternatively (ii) the Club is unable to determine whether players were administered substances prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World AntiDoping Code. As to "Not keeping adequate records". We bought 1000 vials of Thymothingamy and gave it to.. some players. Not sure who got what. For all intents and purposes that is no records.

From :- http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf (h) failed to identify and record the source from which all substances used by players were obtained; (i) failed to adequately monitor and record the use of substances; (j) failed to audit or monitor all substances held on the premises of the Club; (k) failed to implement a system for recording and storing all substances held on the premises of the Club; Try doing a search yourself.

From:- http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/action-and-change-will-occur-at-essendon--just-not-today-20130506-2j2u4.html Switkowski says "innovative supplement practices and compounds soon appeared - somewhat predictably given the mandate of the high performance team" although the "leaders of the program insist their methods were always legal and compliant". "In particular the rapid diversification into exotic supplements, sharp increase in frequency of injections, the shift to treatment offsite in alternative medical clinics, emergence of unfamiliar suppliers, marginalisation of traditional medical staff etc combine to create a disturbing picture of a pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged or documented within the club or in the period under review," he wrote.

Sadly I don't drink anymore. But the same amount is just fine.

I bet you $20 you do.

From Titus O'Reilly Stephen Dank produces evidence that clears everyone In a stunning and surprising move, Stephen Dank has produced unequivocal evidence that clears Essendon and every single player involved in the supplements scandal. “I really should have done this years ago but I’ve been pretty busy not doing anything,” said the former sport scientist. “It’s not like delaying the release of these documents has hurt anybody and I’ve enjoyed the attention actually.” AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan said the release of the evidence was ‘super awkward’ for the AFL, ASADA and the media. “We should have just taken Stephen at face value from the moment he said he had proof. Shame on us for wanting to see some actual evidence.” “Sometimes having faith is better than having proof. This is the brightest day in Australian sport.” Essendon chairman Paul Little said the records proved this was all a ‘crazy misunderstanding.’ “You have to laugh. This all could have been sorted out two years ago if Stephen had come forward then.” “For reasons unknown, he didn’t but we can all have a good laugh about it now. What a madcap adventure!” A spokesperson for the 34 players involved said they were glad this was all finally cleared up. “The downside for a few of the players is they will now have to go to Morwell.” James Hird released a brief statement saying he would be suing Stephen Dank.

Stevie Wonder and Jose Feliciano.