is there a way to get this to be compulsory viewing for all new/existing demonland posters? there is wisdom in that file...

I'll see if maybe we can attach the link to the Code of Conduct thread.

That cracked me up... especially the subtle "you dumbass" comment

.....

Great post Rogue and salient reading.

Well done.

I was offended because he acted as if I was racist for saying aborignal players. I was offended because he countered with convo of how I spoke of skin colour.

I did nothing of the sort.

I said that the issue of a player's aboriginality was irrelevant to Sheedy's interest in a footballer. You do take people's arguments out of context and it does you no favors.

If you are offended by what you hear at the footy against your background then you have my full sympathies. It is disgusting. But please dont play the racist card at me as that was completely contrary to my point. And it clearly derides any sensible discussion.

I'll leave it at that. It deserves no further comment.

Goodvibes

A very well thought out opinion of list management. I welcome a mix of experience and youth in the team and IMHO this year has shown us that we are not in a position to delist all those over 30, bar Neita, White and Jmac. Our young players will improve with time and I believe your view is a particularly good one.

Great post Rogue and salient reading.

Well done.

I did nothing of the sort.

I said that the issue of a player's aboriginality was irrelevant to Sheedy's interest in a footballer. You do take people's arguments out of context and it does you no favors.

If you are offended by what you hear at the footy against your background then you have my full sympathies. It is disgusting. But please dont play the racist card at me as that was completely contrary to my point. And it clearly derides any sensible discussion.

I'll leave it at that. It deserves no further comment.

Well I must not be the only one to think it was wrong. I have received personal messages supporting my argument and just because other people aren't posting what they think about people like you and Deanox doesn't mean they are not all thinking it. No further comment.

Demon32:

If you argue that Pickett should be kept on due to him being part of a larger group, ie Aboriginies, rather than because of his specific merits then you are, by definition, making a generalisation.

Demon32:

If you argue that Pickett should be kept on due to him being part of a larger group, ie Aboriginies, rather than because of his specific merits then you are, by definition, making a generalisation.

Ok as an indiginieous man of Australia and having seen the interest the Bombers have shown in the Northern Territory I think you will find Sheedys interest in Aboriginal players to be fact, not a generalisation.

A generalisation is me saying all Melbourne supporters sit on their hands, or love the snow.

I said Sheedy likes Aboriginal players, how that is a generalisation I will never know. Plus I don't care if I generalise my own people. We get generalised all the time. What I couldn't do it if I wanted?

Im sick of hearing people act like they understand my culture. You don't have anyidea.

....he likes aboriginal players. He likes the way they play, the speed, the ruthlessness.

That is a generalisation. Apparently, according to the generalisation, all aboriginies are 'fast', 'ruthless' and they 'play' exactly the same way. Did Polly Farmer play the same way as Aaron Davey? Did Cole play the same way as Farmer? Did Rioli play with the same speed as Lovett?

If it wasn't your generalisation then it was Sheedy's, providing that you can prove that that is exactly what he thinks.

Also a generalisation, no matter who makes it, is still a generalisation. If you want to make a generalisation about Aboriginies then it's no different to, say, Arthur Tunstall making it. It doesn't make it right.

I could say that all Melbourne supporters use reasoned arguments. It's a generalisation, but it doesn't mean it's applicable to all.

I would envisage the longer-term scenario being something like the following. It would give us an exceptionally younger list by 2010.

It is not fixed in concrete, players may move above or below a line depending on performance, re-commitment, injury, etc. This could be revisited from time to time, adding newly drafted or traded players. How we place rookies (Neaves, Hughes, Hayes) will also be decided as they are delisted or promoted.

------------------------------- < Keep players below this line

In rough order of current value:

Rivers

McLean

Bell

Jones

Bartram

Sylvia

Bate

Bruce

Green

Johnstone

Davey

Carroll

Wheatley

Petterd

Dunn

Frawley

Newton

Paul Johnson

Moloney

Buckley

Garland

Bode

Weetra

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist in two years

White (retire)

Whelan (retire?)

McDonald (retire)

Robertson (retire)

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist after next season

Neitz (retire)

Yze (retire)

Holland (retire)

Warnock

Godfrey

Miller

Chris Johnson

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist after this season

Brown (retire)

Ward (retire)

Neville

Ferguson

Bizzell (retire)

Jamar

Pickett

You may want to argue the fine points e.g. whether Ferguson or Warnock should be swapped, how long Neitz will play for etc. but it gives an indication of what we have to do in the next two years if we are to comprehensively renew our list.

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist in two years

White (retire)

Whelan (retire?)

McDonald (retire)

Robertson (retire)

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist after next season

Neitz (retire)

Yze (retire)

Holland (retire)

Warnock

Godfrey

Miller

Chris Johnson

-------------------------------- < Below this line retire, trade or delist after this season

Brown (retire)

Ward (retire)

Neville

Ferguson

Bizzell (retire)

Jamar

Pickett

The real key is, where will the new ruckman come from. We had better draft someone talented this year to hopefully be ready by the time Joffa retires wouldn't you agree?

That is pretty much on the money, and while you never know, it's entirely possible that guyz like Bode and Weetra won't make it as afl players as well (we hope they will).

That means we realistically need to replace 19-20 players in 3 drafts (including losing our FF and #1 ruckman).

that is a hell of a lot of players to bring in the team in that short a period of time (especially considering that in the last 4 years we have brought in only about 5-6 players a year.

A sizable shakeup at years end (8-9 players delisted/retired) is needed which could result in some pain for a season of 2 (we won't win a premiership in next 1-2 seasons imo, maybe in 3 years). this will better place us for 2-3 years time and will put us in a promising place for 3-4 years time.

Whatever the arguments about actual position, I can't see any of the 14 players below the second last line remaining at the club after 2008. The only possible exceptions might be Neitz if he plugs on into 2009, Warnock if he "does a Carroll", Miller and CJ if they somehow re-invent themselves, and Jamar if we decide we really need another ruckman (and Neaves doesn't cut it). The rest are forced by retirements or offer us nothing beyond that time.

I think the most players an AFL club is likely to turn over is about 7 (which is what my scenario envisages in the next two years). Beyond that you can't guarantee that late draft picks are going to be any better than the players you are delisting. That also allows for a potential 3 more at the end of 2009.

Of course, it's always possible a trade may be made for a player in the "keep" list.

Well I must not be the only one to think it was wrong. I have received personal messages supporting my argument and just because other people aren't posting what they think about people like you and Deanox doesn't mean they are not all thinking it. No further comment.

There is no need to personalise this as you havre tried often to do. I think your last sentence is your most valuable one.

BTW, Axis of Bob has nailed it perfectly. Generalisations of a group of people is a generalisation whether it is made about the group or by one of the group.

......

Good summation Maurie.

And very pertinent to all those people who want to retain all those 28yo+ fringe players as if MFC is a retirement village for NQR players.

The real key is, where will the new ruckman come from. We had better draft someone talented this year to hopefully be ready by the time Joffa retires wouldn't you agree?

I'm sure there are two schools of thought:

1. Rucks are over-rated, taps to advantage are actually few.

In this case Johnson/Jamar/Neaves are all young and with many years of service we can get by. Better to concentrate our draft picks on midfield strengthening and potential KPPs.

2. Rucks are vitally important, especially in around-the-ground play

In this case the only options after White retires are to 1. stick with Johnson/Jamar/Neaves, or 2. replace one of them with a trade, or 3. replace one of them with a draft selection and then develop.

Give me Dean Cox.

Don't be surprised if our midfield improves next year and Yze plays forward. If that happens and he kicks 40 goals plus he would be a massive chance for another 1 year extension.

I agree the most likely scenario is he will finish up next year but it will be awfully hard to push a guy who has kicked 40 odd from a pocket into retirement.

I hope our midfield does.

And Yze has played forward for the past 3 years.

I dont see Yze's attitude or body living up to the hype. If we have a near full ist to pick from he will end up gracing Sandy for most of 2008.

I hope our midfield does.

And Yze has played forward for the past 3 years.

I dont see Yze's attitude or body living up to the hype. If we have a near full ist to pick from he will end up gracing Sandy for most of 2008.

take a look at urself...

yze will be gracing me as he continues to be a freak....

u keep using his performance this year as an indicator of his potential,,,,,,,,,,

does this mean

whelan neitz mclean whelan rivers are crap?

If you have ever actually read my posts you will know I have judged Yze on his total contributions over the past four years. Where in the post you quoted me did I say I was judging him over the past year.

Yours is a case of overblown and grammatically challenged hyperbole in desperate needs of some facts and relevance to the argument.

I dont see Yze's attitude or body living up to the hype. If we have a near full ist to pick from he will end up gracing Sandy for most of 2008.

I know he wont be the prominent fixture he has been in the future but he will not be gracing Sandy for long. A new coach will be excited by his skill level. No one can kick the magical Melbourne goal like Adem Yze.

I have often been dissapointed in him in the past but he is a player of great skill with his foot, something, I believe the MFC lacks.

Final year of Adem Yze's contract - I'm expecting a big year from him in 2008.

It's certainly all falling into place for him. Last year of contract, new coach, surgery allowing him an excuse for the the fans of carrying injury.......

I hope a new coach can get him to pull his finger out and become an accountable, hard running midfielder/forward, but history has shown me that leopards don't can't their spots too quickly.

I'm so sick of people saying "but he kicks the occasional magical goal". Watch the game, not just the highlights. Better yet, watch the whole game and not just the ball. It's truly enlightening.

Spot on Bob.

It's certainly all falling into place for him. Last year of contract, new coach, surgery allowing him an excuse for the the fans of carrying injury.......

I hope a new coach can get him to pull his finger out and become an accountable, hard running midfielder/forward, but history has shown me that leopards don't can't their spots too quickly.

I'm so sick of people saying "but he kicks the occasional magical goal". Watch the game, not just the highlights. Better yet, watch the whole game and not just the ball. It's truly enlightening.

Stats:

Kicks: 14

Handballs: 0

Goals: 3

Arguing with umpire while opponent streams out of defence with the ball: 21

Pointing at his opponent hoping someone will pick him up: 32

Goal assists: huh???

Stats:

Kicks: 14

Handballs: 0

Goals: 3

Arguing with umpire while opponent streams out of defence with the ball: 21

Pointing at his opponent hoping someone will pick him up: 32

Goal assists: huh???

You missed these....

Hard ball gets:

Contested clearances: <_<

Tackles: 1.5 B)

Smothers:

Defensive spoils in marking contests: