lack of midfield depth...

[deanox 9,912]

given our team for this week:

B: Daniel Ward, Nathan Carroll, Cameron Bruce

HB: Paul Wheatley, Clint Bizzell, Daniel Bell

C: Travis Johnstone, James McDonald, Aaron Davey

HF: Brad Green, Russell Robertson, Simon Godfrey

F: Colin Sylvia, David Neitz, Matthew Bate

Foll: Jeff White, Brock McLean, Nathan Jones

I/C: Paul Johnson, Ricky Petterd, James Frawley, Adem Yze

Emg: Simon Buckley, Nathan Brown, Ben Holland

and polayers missing from the best 22 (wheelan, moloney, rivers, pickett, bartram), it looks like we are lacking midfield depth. i mean we have warnock, ferguson and holland as back up tall defenders, and rivers out injured. we have miller, dunn, newton in development and holland as possible tall forward targets. brown, ward and CJ can play half bck flank. CJ or wheeatly or green can be pushed onto a wing. jamar and the developing neaves are in the ruck department.

but if we had our best 22 on the park we have perhaps godfrey as the only depth midfield without including untried players like buckley.

could this be our biggest problem in terms of list development we're facing?

any ideas?

[Gorgoroth 12,947]

not really as we have bartram and moloney and even picket who can swing through the centre as well as green, sylvia, bate and bruce who you havent named in the centre

[deanox 9,912]

yes bruce, green etc arent named in the centre but they normally rotate through the centre. take a couple of players out and we lose that rotation.

playing bartram in the centre is robbing peter to pay paul. we dont really have any other mids who arent in our starting team.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

a 100% fit Moloney would be great. tough and doesnt stuff around. wins his own ball and kicks long into forward 50. not always to a target but if ND left a crumber at Neita`s feet full time it would work wonders. he is a huge loss when out injured. Bruce should play on ball full time. it shits me seeing him playing in defence. with Brown and Godfrey on way out you may be right. buckley plays midfield. on flip side well have some good picks this year. Green and Sylvia rotate forward pocket/wing

[Jarka 767]

Key forwards anyone?

We have one genuine key forward who gets a regular game and one who doesn't, that's a major problem.

[Rogue 585]

While we could do with a quick mid stepping up to the plate I probably see this as the strongest area of our list.

[BrownlowBruce 1]

not really as we have bartram and moloney and even picket who can swing through the centre as well as green, sylvia, bate and bruce who you havent named in the centre

agreed, good post..

[Little Goffy 14,521]

could this be our biggest problem in terms of list development we're facing?

any ideas?

No, no it's really not.

Seriously, no.

Young midfielders / rotation runners from HB/HF =

Mclean, Sylvia, Bate, Bartram, Bell, Moloney, CJ, Petterd, Jones, Davey (10 already) and the untried but possible Buckley.

Add Wheatley, Dunn and likely even Frawley for some tall mobile options in a pinch.

Then you've got the established midfield of Bruce, Green, Johnstone, Whelan and Godders (4) and the older runners of McDonald, Ward, Brown, and even Yze and Pickett (5).

How 'bout that, we could have a starting 18 entirely of players capable of rotating through the midfield, plus a bench of mobile talls.

Barring a total failure of recruiting for three years in a row, I can't see us getting caught out in the midfield.

I'd suggest focusing on mobile ruckmen and key position players for a while, given that they typically take longer to develop than small-medium sized runners. White and Neitz seem to be the two players most difficult to replace of everyone we have even remotely close to retirement age.

I'd really hate to end up in a situation where a credible player gets shown up again and again because they were handed too much of a burden before they were fully matured (Zac Dawson should bloody well sue).

Of course, Newton may be about to kick 10 in a quarter for Sandy, which would at least reassure me on one count.

Remember that we still have just about the longest injury list of any club at the moment. Five weeks from now we'll be shocked by who can't get a game in our running brigade.

[Rogue 585]

could this be our biggest problem in terms of list development we're facing?any ideas?

Tall defenders:

Rivers

Carroll

Frawley (green)

Warnock (green)

Bizzell (30+ in '07)

Holland (30+ in '07)

Ferguson - doubt he'll be at the club

Tall forwards:

Neitz (30+ in '07)

Robertson

Bate (green) - can swing through there

Dunn (green) - not up to playing KP atm

Newton (green) - hasn't played yet

Miller - doesn't kick goals

Small forwards:

Davey - played up the ground because we lack pace

...

Rucks:

White (30+ in '07)

PJ (green)

Jamar - not up to it?

//+ Neaves on rookie list

I'd be looking at places other than our midfield group for problems with our list

[deanox 9,912]

sorry i think ive maybe used the wrong words here. im not saying we have superstars in waiting ready to step up in these other positions but there are payers from whom these positions are their first. in the midfield, you can name this group of players,

Mclean, Sylvia, Bate, Bartram, Bell, Moloney, CJ, Petterd, Jones, Davey (10 already) and the untried but possible Buckley.

Add Wheatley, Dunn and likely even Frawley for some tall mobile options in a pinch.

Then you've got the established midfield of Bruce, Green, Johnstone, Whelan and Godders (4) and the older runners of McDonald, Ward, Brown, and even Yze and Pickett (5).

but mclean, moloney, pettered, jones, johnstone, godfrey, mcdonald and pickett are the midfielders in that list.

sylvia, bate, dunn and davey are forwards. yes i know bate has played a lot of his footy on the ball, but he wont be a full time mid. and yes i know sylvia could be a full time mid, but i'd like to see him get over his op first...

bartram, bell, CJ, wheatley and frawley are defenders, not mids. yes they could run around, but that doesnt seem to be their natural position.

i just thought it interesting that apart from godfrey we dont have any true midfielders not in our best 22 (with the exception of players who havnt played ie buckley).

do adelaide have this problem?

[grazman 7,432]

I don't think we necessarily have a dearth of midfielders, as others have already stated, our injury situation makes the situation look a lot worse than it actually is. I don't think it should be forgotten either that midfielders are a lot easier to find in drafts. We've done extremely well in the last couple of years in drafting later picks... We have a number of kids on the list yet to strut their wares in terms of midfield ability Buckley, Neville, Bode, Weetra, Hayes... some of them might make it, maybe none, but the club hasn't been sitting on it's hands. Petterd and Bartram are rippers and there's every chance there will be another one around the corner, if not this year, than next, but for every Ricky and Clint there's two or three others that don't make it.

The two key concerns for us are firstly the Ruck... White is starting to come back to the pack, and thank God PJ has come on, because Jamar has not been able to find the ball and Neaves is not ready. That's four ruckman on the list and I think that's about right. It's worth examining though. Most sides have two ruckman in the side. The second ruckman is virtually the apprentice, but some sides are increasingly keeping both on the field rather than necessarily rotating through the bench. I think this will happen with PJ as his value increases in being able to do more around the ground other than contest hitouts. If Jamar goes, then I think we need to promote Neaves and look at another rookie list position or even two.

Tall forwards I was a lot more worried about last weekend than this.... If Bate continues to play that role at CHF then I'll be very happy. We have Neita for maybe at least another year.... Will Newton be any good... we've all got our fingers crossed - it would certainly solve the depth problems. People have their doubts on Dunn, but I like him playing deep, but with Neita there it's hard to give him extended runs. Miller is problematic for me, because I love his endeavour and leadership, but he thinks too slowly to be a key forward. Robbo is a monty and the rest are filled in by midfielders.

Small forwards are simply midfielders in transition. (with the exception of guys like Farmer, Medhurst, Armstrong, Milne etc - I think they have extremely limited value)

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Small forwards ... I think they have extremely limited value

I can't agree with you there.

Who's meant to kick the goals if the ball hits the ground in the forward line?

[Jaded No More 68,903]

I can't agree with you there.

Who's meant to kick the goals if the ball hits the ground in the forward line?

I sort of agree with that.

We really lack crumbers, and this is very evident when Davey is up the ground. The ball comes in and then usually goes out as soon as it hits the deck.

When Wheels and Bartram are both back, I'd love to see them switch and maybe have Wheels play deep in attack. His pressure and tackling up there will be a real bonus, and with Belly coming on in leaps and bounds down back, we might not need Wheels there anymore.

Thoughts?

[45HG 1,539]

i'd feel sorry for the people around me if wheels played in the forward line and nabbed a few sausages, they'd be in for a long arvo!

but to be honest the times he has been there he hasn't looked too bad, and i think it's because of the way defenders play the forward line.

i have a theory that because defenders aren't used to it, they play the position in the old cliche fashion, of presenting the whole day and forward line pressure. against the dogs last year i think it was, he was there for 5 minutes and made at least 8 or 9 leads, with one almost sticking.

it does free up the chance for barts and bell to continue their development, and we've all seen they can do the job, though maybe not as well as the god himself

but it would be a very interesting move because, as i say, he would continue to lead all day long around the pockets, would be a viable decoy from the proper forwards, but not get in their way (as i reckon jonesy did last week with robbo, and sylvia does all too often) and would also be a fierce tackler, good luck getting the ball out of defence easily.

an interesting proposition

[Little Goffy 14,521]

Whelan in the forward line!

Freaking genius, that is!

He'd add a lot of pressure against the defenders, work hard to keep it in there, could negate rebounders like Mcleod, lay some killer tackles to get frees inside 50m, and be a tough player read to extract crumbs from messy packs. It's very easy to picture him creating that extra half second it takes to get a shot away.

The risk would be limited - I think we could count on Whelan to find a way to contribute even if he just couldn't get a win up forward. He wouldn't be one of those 'no goals = no point' forwards, that's for sure.

I'd want to see how well he hits a short lead or snaps at goal, but damn, there's a really possibility there.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I scoffed when I saw this, but upon further reflection, I think you may at least be onto something.

In my mind;

- I like our tall defenders coming through. Rivers and Frawley could be wonderful, Carroll I like for 5 more years...

- Our forward structure has me VERY nervous. Among our best prospects we have a part time tall forward (Bate), A Tall forward who hasn't yet shown he's capable of being a league leader (Dunn), and a freak of a talent who hasn't yet played a game. It's certainly possible that all 3 could go on to become the most dominant KP forward set-up in the game... but it's more likely that maybe one, or two will come through and hold things together. That doesn't inspire me with confidence.

- Our midfield has always been something I just put a tick on, and move on to the next problem. But if I look at it more, we don't have the rotations we probably need for 22 rounds plus finals. Even if we got Judd to the club, it's only half the job to say he, Mclean and Jones will be awesome... they need backups.... and all the midfield backups are a mixed bunch of mid-height players, soft or small outside wingmen, old, or depth players who really aren't too good at footy... At the start of the year I looked at our rotations and discovered we had a starting midfield and 2 complete rotations I was happy with... now I'm not so sure...

At the start of the year:

1st: White, McLean, Jmac, Bruce, Johnstone, Green

2nd: Jamar, Jones, Pickett, Bate, Bartram, Davey

3rd: PJ, Bell, Godfrey, CJ, Moloney, Sylvia.... with old man Yze if you were desperate.

Now I look at it some of those players are no longer even viable midfield options...

1st: White, McLean, Jones, JMac, Bruce, Johnstone.

(Bruce isn't playing in the guts as much anymore, Trav's beenhot and cold, Jones has lifted)

2nd: PJ, Green, Bartram, Moloney, Davey, Godfrey.

(PJ is now second preferred and looking much better, Green has drifted out of the guts, Bartram is still important, Moloney showed his importance in just a few games, Davey is becoming a dangerous winger, Godfrey has gotten more out of himself than anyone but if he's in our second rotation it shows we have problems)

3rd: Jamar, Pickett, Bate....

(these guys CAN play there. Jamar has, and has been disgraceful around the ground, Pickett is a complete "?", and Bbate has the capability but you just want 3 of him, and could be wasted on ball when he could be a forward target)

That leaves Bell (defender, defender, defender), CJ (Unlikely to be anything more than a winger/flanker), Sylvia (I like him a sa forward) and Yze (getting on a bit)... all of whom I'd prefer not to have to use in the guts.

The luxury we have now though, is that we have 2 rotations that are quite useful. In reality, that second rotation is pretty good, and many of them could be in a first rotation at another club. the beauty is that we don't need to go and recruit like nutcases, and pickup 6 draft picks worth of quick midfielders... We can afford to recruit with our first or second pick, just one or two a year and we should be kept in good stead in the years to come. Many of those guns shown above are VERY young.

So well done Deanox, But I will say that while you're right, I think the situation is NOWHERE NEAR as dire as our ruck problem, and problems with tall forwards...

[deanox 9,912]

So well done Deanox, But I will say that while you're right, I think the situation is NOWHERE NEAR as dire as our ruck problem, and problems with tall forwards...

thanks mate first credit ive had on this thread lol

i agree about our ruckls but the way i see it is we dont have much choice atm. we try and trade for a ruck to join white and PJ, we promote neaves and hope he makes it, or we draft a ruck (either a ready made with an early pick, or an outside chance rookie). perhaps we scour the state leagues for a ready made ruckman and convince him to nominate...

but it is interesting to read articles like the one the other day that said hit outs dont correspond to wins. it is definetly about how good your midfield is, especially if your ruck can at least make a contest. PJ is making a decent contest this year, and i hope he improves.

you make good points about our key forwards. we could really go either way with that. newton, bate, dunn, robbo, miller could all play tall forwards or we could be left with robbo and dunn occasionally. atm i think newton will work out but it will take time. drafting a genuine tall strong forward (in the reiwolt or pavlich mould) would solve all our problems for 10 years

if you had to draft tomoz would you favour rucks, tall forwards, or midfielders more? or try and get one of each? i think my first pick would be the strong CHF if we could get one as good as the above mentioned. then i think it would be ruck (if the ruck was good enough to make an immediate impact) otherwise midfield. i think id try and trade for ruck or rookie another.

fwiw if we trade for judd we lose our best chance at securing one of these types of players. those who say yes trade judd for picks and a player, are you suggesting that a midfielder is more important to us right now than any of these other positions?

[sylvinator 96]

if you had to draft tomoz would you favour rucks, tall forwards, or midfielders more? or try and get one of each? i think my first pick would be the strong CHF if we could get one as good as the above mentioned. then i think it would be ruck (if the ruck was good enough to make an immediate impact) otherwise midfield. i think id try and trade for ruck or rookie another.

[Jaded No More 68,903]

fwiw if we trade for judd we lose our best chance at securing one of these types of players. those who say yes trade judd for picks and a player, are you suggesting that a midfielder is more important to us right now than any of these other positions?

Everything starts with the midfield. A gun midfield will make up for a suspect backline or an average forward line. West Coast and Adelaide are examples of this.

Judd shouldn't be classified as 'getting another midfielder', he should be seen as 'getting the best player in the AFL to play for our side'.

We might need more crumbers, another ruckman etc... but what we need most, is a superstar.

[Jarka 767]

Everything starts with the midfield. A gun midfield will make up for a suspect backline or an average forward line. West Coast and Adelaide are examples of this.

Judd shouldn't be classified as 'getting another midfielder', he should be seen as 'getting the best player in the AFL to play for our side'.

We might need more crumbers, another ruckman etc... but what we need most, is a superstar.

I agree Jaded, and his name is Cotchin.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

are you suggesting that a midfielder is more important to us right now than any of these other positions?

Saying Chris Judd is another midfielder, is like saying a porsche is another car.... Judd is so much more than just a midfielder. What he brings to the table NO-ONE can bring to the table... leadership, hardness, work ethic, goals, hardball gets, delivery, consistency, ability to shake a tag, professionalism, a marquee player....

The list goes on and on...

And consider the difference he would make to the FLEET of young players eager for an example to be set...

Judd would make a 38-year-old White look good...