Coaching and talent on the park is all you need to know.

Principles of the pipeline or whatever is just rhetoric. If you thinking coaching doesn't matter then you're out of your damn mind.

On 26/05/2024 at 22:00, titan_uranus said:

I disagreed with almost all of the rest of it. 

Game plans aren’t aspirational and this conversation isn’t academic. Coaches talk about how they set up to play every week FFS.

Nebulous comments about “principles of their culture” are just that, nebulous. Clubs set about instilling whatever principles they want, of course, but that doesn’t happen devoid of also instilling what they want to do on the field. 

List-wise, Judd McVee’s a star addition to our side, JVR is hugely exciting for a 20 year old and Howes has showed plenty. So whilst our list has holes and isn’t as good as others, it hasn’t been the disaster you suggest it is. 

The culture and standards haven’t “fallen away” to any relevant extent. You just infer that from our comparatively worse seasons in 2022-23, I think.

You named four “very good” players who left. Of those, only Jackson fits that description. Bedford’s the most overrated player in the AFL whilst Harmes and Jordon were in the “regressed” camp.

Put some names to the “quality in the market” who we needed but couldn’t afford? And having identified that we need talent in key positions, is it then a problem that we have salary cap tied up in long term deals for our A-graders that perhaps has prevented us from splashing more cash in 2022-23?

So yeah. Don’t agree with much of it. 

Firstly - you've got it backwards. The nebulous concept is the game plan - because what unfolds on the field is not within the coach or players' control. This isn't basketball, where plays can be scripted with a high degree of control. Or even soccer. With 18 players per team, our number of variables makes much of what unfolds explicitly and mathematically out of our control. That doesn't mean the game plan has zero impact - teams of course try to execute their principles certain ways - but very rarely does it actually play out the way it was intended. 

What is not nebulous - and is within the teams control - are the principles of how we want to play. This is why Goodwin talks about contest and defence, and why when we are flat - the first piece of feedback is invariably to return to our principles. Gamestyle and personnel / positions are all downstream of this. 

All MFC supporters have seen this play out - Roos didn't come in and bring some cutting edge game plan. He brought principles,  culture and standards. He spoke about it. Goodwin has reinforced that foundation and it is always what's most important.

Secondly, you've made my point on Lamb. McVee, JVR and Howes were drafted. By JT. Not acquired at the trade table. 

The culture and standards have indeed fallen. I've elaborated on this previously and won't revisit this here. It was evident well before any of our most recent off season from hell came to light.

You underrate those that left and worse, missed the point. I didn't say they were A graders. I said they had key strengths that aligned to our principles. Even then, objectively Harmes has played 2 or 3 games this year at far higher level than billings or hunter have. Jordon is holding down a midfield spot in the clear best team in the league and quelled Walsh, who coincidentally, destroyed us. Bedford is the worst of this cohort, but his pressure and contest is league leading for his position. We'd be a better team with him in the side.

Quality in market - easy in hindsight and impossible to know who we actually had a crack at - but McStay, Chol , BZT, Ratugolea, Hollands, Ginnivan, Henry, Gresham, McKay, Doedee, Amon, Hill, Taranto, Acres, Berry, Bruhn, Bowes, Francis, Meek are all players who could have added something to our team. Obviously this is a stupid exercise as for various reasons a lot of these were probably not possible - but the bottom line is our acquisitions have been mediocre whilst our rivals have added some key pieces, sometimes for a lot of capital, sometimes for not much at all. 

We were at the peak and didn't need much. 1 or 2 or 3 players adding to the team significantly was probably all we needed. We couldn't do it. 

In any case, if you genuinely think our work at the trade table has been great or even good, there's no point discussing. 

To me it's been inarguably poor.

On 28/05/2024 at 18:36, fr_ap said:

Firstly - you've got it backwards. The nebulous concept is the game plan - because what unfolds on the field is not within the coach or players' control. This isn't basketball, where plays can be scripted with a high degree of control. Or even soccer. With 18 players per team, our number of variables makes much of what unfolds explicitly and mathematically out of our control. That doesn't mean the game plan has zero impact - teams of course try to execute their principles certain ways - but very rarely does it actually play out the way it was intended. 

What is not nebulous - and is within the teams control - are the principles of how we want to play. This is why Goodwin talks about contest and defence, and why when we are flat - the first piece of feedback is invariably to return to our principles. Gamestyle and personnel / positions are all downstream of this. 

All MFC supporters have seen this play out - Roos didn't come in and bring some cutting edge game plan. He brought principles,  culture and standards. He spoke about it. Goodwin has reinforced that foundation and it is always what's most important.

Secondly, you've made my point on Lamb. McVee, JVR and Howes were drafted. By JT. Not acquired at the trade table. 

The culture and standards have indeed fallen. I've elaborated on this previously and won't revisit this here. It was evident well before any of our most recent off season from hell came to light.

You underrate those that left and worse, missed the point. I didn't say they were A graders. I said they had key strengths that aligned to our principles. Even then, objectively Harmes has played 2 or 3 games this year at far higher level than billings or hunter have. Jordon is holding down a midfield spot in the clear best team in the league and quelled Walsh, who coincidentally, destroyed us. Bedford is the worst of this cohort, but his pressure and contest is league leading for his position. We'd be a better team with him in the side.

Quality in market - easy in hindsight and impossible to know who we actually had a crack at - but McStay, Chol , BZT, Ratugolea, Hollands, Ginnivan, Henry, Gresham, McKay, Doedee, Amon, Hill, Taranto, Acres, Berry, Bruhn, Bowes, Francis, Meek are all players who could have added something to our team. Obviously this is a stupid exercise as for various reasons a lot of these were probably not possible - but the bottom line is our acquisitions have been mediocre whilst our rivals have added some key pieces, sometimes for a lot of capital, sometimes for not much at all. 

We were at the peak and didn't need much. 1 or 2 or 3 players adding to the team significantly was probably all we needed. We couldn't do it. 

In any case, if you genuinely think our work at the trade table has been great or even good, there's no point discussing. 

To me it's been inarguably poor.

 

You are certainly on to something. 

Tim Lambs record of late has been incredibly poor and the guy gets far too much love on here for yet bringing in so many NQR that has continue to clog our list since 2021.

We haven't improved our list at all on the run, we've just stayed competitive but that wears thing mentally when you're grinding each year only to go out in straight sets come finals.

Our game style is rubbish and has been for some time.

Controlling and slowing the game and relying on superhuman efforts from the same 3 or 4 players every week is not sustainable, logical or even watchable.

Goodwin simply won't change from this. This is the alarming part.

Things will have to get really ugly for a few years before the club seriously looks at the coach. In the meantime our list gets older and more out of balance.

This era is over unfortunately.

Even worse, the next coach is rebuilding. Generational players like Gawn, Oliver, Petracca will be a luxury he won't have.

With our midfield in decline, it is pretty clear we have become a one-man team this year. The ruck rules give Max a clear advantage in the stoppages and, in fine and still conditions, Max is an offensive and defensive weapon around the ground due to his contested marking. But we need to come up with some better tactics when Gawn is being neutralised from taking the ball out of the ruck. Playing with less numbers at general stoppages has especially failed for us in wet conditions, when we are not dominating hit outs and when our connection between Max and the midfield is off. This is the pattern with all our losses.

Against the better rucks and in the wet, I would like to see us play more like the Bulldogs in 2021, with even numbers at the stoppages (or even blitzing with an extra number).

To do this, I would play Windsor as a high half forward or high half back and have him come to the general stoppages. Kossie should also push up to general stoppages. They both have good breakaway speed and are good decision makers in congested situation, which is particularly required when kicking to an outnumbered forward line.

 

On 25/05/2024 at 11:42, fr_ap said:

Honestly this is getting uselessly academic & tiresome. At best, game styles are almost entirely aspirational and depend on what each opposition brings. Add in the randomness of 36 on-ground individuals making distinct and random decisions, as well as external factors like weather and umpires...you get the drift. Some sports have narrower guardrails by their nature - we are pretty free form.

Imo the point of the 'gamestyle' isn't to dictate how and when we execute plays -  but is moreso about imbuing principles - contest, defence, tempo - that players can remember and execute in split second decisions in the heat of battle. 

For a few years there, our principles were strong and clear and suited the strengths of our key players and role players. We also established really high standards and fostered a culture that maintained this. The list build was informed by these principles and standards, and so we were in sync at all levels - AFL through to VFL. 

To take advantage of this, we had several of the best players in the AFL in key positions, and some pretty good players in other positions too. Ultimately this is the most important thing. The best players will always control who wins games. 

Following the flag, the culture and standards started to fall away, and crucially we've recruited individuals who were not suited to our principles (Hunter, Schache, Billings, Fullarton). A lot of our 'very good' players who's strengths agreed to our principles (Brayshaw, Hibberd) either retired, regressed (Sparrow, Bowey, Brown, Mcdonald) or left the club (Harmes, Jordon, Jackson, Bedford). All these guys had flaws, but were strong at our principles. We've replaced them with players who have some other strengths, but don't align to the Melbourne principles. They become weak links in the chain.

Most importantly, the remaining players who embodied our principles the most (Viney & Oliver) have fallen off a cliff for different reasons.

We look so unrecognisable because our contest is gone. We're no longer winning more than our share of critical contests - bottom 4 at clearances, bottom 10 at contested footy. Our tackling is weak. 

This is not the fault of the coaching staff, who showed they could build the environment and a set of principles that can be successful. It's way too easy to blame our issues on a "gamestyle". 

Our window is over because of our recruiting and list building since the flag, which has been probably the worst of any team in the comp. Other than Windsor this year, we have not added a single player who has added positively to the team. Not a single one. 

There has been plenty of quality on the market in positions we needed. We either can't identify it, can't attract it, or couldn't pay for it because we've locked up so many on long term contracts. 

Why Tim Lamb gets love around here is beyond me - he's done a horrendous job. He wouldn't be making list decisions in a vacuum, but it ultimately falls on him. 

JT, Josh Mahoney, Roos, Jackson, Brendan Mccartney and Goodwin were responsible for our flag, and Lamb is responsible for our stagnation since.

Gamestyle gamestyle gamestyle bla bla - Goodwin no longer has the cattle at his disposal. 

Well , the Chaos theorists would sort of disagree.

There is order in chaos and patterns can be identified with enough data analysis.

with Bifurcations and patterns defined by formula you just need to identify the strange attractor and where to apply the magic number and youve got it. 

Ive never been able to completely understand it but Im hoping someone in the club does.