After not seeing the game but watching the three previous i think jeff white needs to lift. For years people and fans have critised tj, being a no 1 dtaft pick and all his potential and so on. But white always escapes this.

He is very soft for a guy his size. Never imposes himself on the game. Doesn't kick enough goals. Doesn't take strong marks around the ground, occasionaly tries a big specky. Shocking disposal (eg turnover against geelong)

I hear a lot of put downs to jamar and pj, i would prefer grooming both of them over white. More physical and they have a crack!!

White is definitely past his prime and his importance is fading.

However he is still our best ruckman by so far it isn't funny.

he needs support and he isnt getting it. it is unfortunate that over the years we have recruited a number of reasonable rucks and developed them but now that white is on the way out whats left isnt up to standard...

White is definitely past his prime and his importance is fading.

However he is still our best ruckman by so far it isn't funny.

Agree entirely. But I think this says more about the other ruckmen on your list, rather than White.

White's tap work was better on Sunday. For the first time he worked out a method of getting above Sandilands (no mean feat!) at the centre bounces. It is his play around the ground that is below par highlighted by the give away goal v Cats and that rediculous kick back 40 metres out of bounds yesterday (that is the single most rediculous play I have seen at MFC). He holds on to the ball for too long when going to kick and when he kicks quickly it is often turned over. Part of this is a confidence issue. However, I do see signs of improvement. If we had a ready replacement I would approve a stint at Sandy... but... Neaves must now be given consideration

He is ineffectual around the ground.... he used to present and be the option throught the corridor... the old days of when we played attractive footy!!

he was stagnant on the weekend - he did not create space and did not run sandilands around...

disappointing start from jeff....

his ruckwork was better though than it has been but needs to be more damaging around the game....

is a club leader!!

Agree entirely. But I think this says more about the other ruckmen on your list, rather than White.

Yeah depth is a really critical issue with our ruck division as much as anywhere else.

White is still okay but he gets no support. A lot of people laud Jamar's tapwork (even though he doesn't get many hitouts at all) but he is useless around the ground, PJ is being used to pinch hit in a KDP and is doing okay but as a ruckman he isn't that much of an improvement on Jamar. I suggested Neaves but most of those in the know reckon he wouldn't do much better than Jamar or PJ.

I don't want to turn this into a Daniher bashing session but IMO he has failed in developing adequate back up for White. At a time when White was in top form he was reluctant to play a second ruckman. We let go Jolly has excelled at Sydney and Simmonds would've been handy down the years as a 2nd ruck forward pocket. Hinsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

Jamar is pretty much there by default and we have had nothing in reserve when injuries have hit us at certain times in 05 and 06 (See Nicholson as 2nd ruck V Bulldogs rnd 2, 2005 and Nick Smith in the semi against Freo last year)

The thing that concerns me is that 15 other clubs seem to have far better ruck divisions and depth than us.

Ahem. So what was your solution with Jolly in 2004? Get rid of an AA ruckman and retain a 200 cm sulk.

Jolly has excelled so much at Sydney they had to get Everitt when they realised his shortcomings. Simmonds wanted to be a first ruck at the end of 2001 and we were developing Jolly.

Jamar and PJ are struggling but good ruckman do not grow on trees and there are so few good ones around.

MFC has a challenge to develop a post Jeff White ruck strategy.

After not seeing the game but watching the three previous i think jeff white needs to lift. For years people and fans have critised tj, being a no 1 dtaft pick and all his potential and so on. But white always escapes this.

He is very soft for a guy his size. Never imposes himself on the game. Doesn't kick enough goals. Doesn't take strong marks around the ground, occasionaly tries a big specky. Shocking disposal (eg turnover against geelong)

I hear a lot of put downs to jamar and pj, i would prefer grooming both of them over white. More physical and they have a crack!!

Your right 'rissy', & I was calling for him to be traded from about 2001/2 for a bigger heftier type ruckman who could use his weight & influence on the game. We would have got a great trade package for him then.

Ahem. So what was your solution with Jolly in 2004? Get rid of an AA ruckman and retain a 200 cm sulk.

Jolly has excelled so much at Sydney they had to get Everitt when they realised his shortcomings. Simmonds wanted to be a first ruck at the end of 2001 and we were developing Jolly.

Jamar and PJ are struggling but good ruckman do not grow on trees and there are so few good ones around.

MFC has a challenge to develop a post Jeff White ruck strategy.

We've had good ruck stock in the past with these players to develope them, but either got rid of them or let them rot in the vfl like jolly did. So they didn't get the opportunity @ first ruck (from injury of senior ruckman) where a young ruckman rises to the occaision after being thrown in the deep end with the responsibility of carrying the team when times are tough, a la Glen Mclean & others.

IMO the time is right for Mark Jamar, he needs white to miss a month or more.

The problem with White is that since the King injury he has become timid and looks for the easy kick/mark.He plays without passion and has the distinct appearance of a player just going through the motions.He was ordinary last year and worse this year.He is apidly becoming an embarrassment.

We've had good ruck stock in the past with these players to develope them, but either got rid of them or let them rot in the vfl like jolly did. So they didn't get the opportunity @ first ruck (from injury of senior ruckman) where a young ruckman rises to the occaision after being thrown in the deep end with the responsibility of carrying the team when times are tough, a la Glen Mclean & others.

IMO the time is right for Mark Jamar, he needs white to miss a month or more.

We traded Jolly for Dunn in 2004.

Jolly was injured early in 2004, White starred and was AA that year. When Jolly played later that he floundered in the AFL and sulked and said he would leave. What was the Club to do, limit the time of an AA ruckman to give a player who could not substantiate a senior spot game time at the expense of the team. He had a golden opportunity to play finals in 2004 but blew it with his insolent attitude. He did not want to play 2nd fiddle to White. He wanted to leave and the Club traded him on the market rather than risk him sulking to the PSD 12 months later and MFC getting nothing.

Its no surprise Roos played him off the bench at the Swans behind the underrated Jason Ball at 34yo. The Swans realised their plight with Jolly and Doyle last year and gave up their first pick to get a 34yo Everitt. He looks better with a superior ruckman in the same side.

We've had good ruck stock in the past with these players to develope them, but either got rid of them or let them rot in the vfl like jolly did. So they didn't get the opportunity @ first ruck (from injury of senior ruckman) where a young ruckman rises to the occaision after being thrown in the deep end with the responsibility of carrying the team when times are tough, a la Glen Mclean & others.

IMO the time is right for Mark Jamar, he needs white to miss a month or more.

Jolly was not left to rot in the VFL. When he was given the second ruck opportunity (which he pretty well still has) he got himself injured against the Bulldogs (when Darcy made him look a bit of a dill). I seem to recall on another occasion he got himself suspended. I don't think he had a lot of games at Sandy, but I am open to correction on that score.

Dunn > Jolly.

It will prove to be a good decision in the long-run.

If there was one ruckman we shouldn't have traded, its Simmonds. He is a much better all-round player, and ruckman, than Jolly.

But that's old news, and we need to deal with the realities of the situation, and that is that White is nearly done, PJ is not a ruckman, and Jamar is extremely average around the ground.

Whatever happens, we certainly need to look seriously at drafting a good ruckman and possibly elevating Neaves.

I doubt both PJ and Jamar will be on the list next year, unless PJ proves himself a capable defender (not holding my breath on that one!). We just cannot waste list-space on 2 extremely average ruckman.

jamar is terrible around the ground we all know that. but he has a good pair of hands when going forward. can we afford to have a tap ruckman who takes the centre bounce then runs forward and waits...occasionally drifts back when it suits? or o we lose too much around the ground...

i think we will struggle around the ground but just wondering peoples thoughts...

Ahem. So what was your solution with Jolly in 2004? Get rid of an AA ruckman and retain a 200 cm sulk.

No, I know we got a good deal for Jolly my only issue is that we seem to have developed some good ruckmen and let them go.

From reading these boards for a while I know that you have rather strong views on Jolly and I generally agree with them.

What it all boils down to is that Jamar hasn't come on as we would have liked.

Jolly has excelled so much at Sydney they had to get Everitt when they realised his shortcomings. Simmonds wanted to be a first ruck at the end of 2001 and we were developing Jolly.

He and Everitt have worked rather well and I'd say pretty confidently Jolly has outperformed Everitt this year.

I'd also like to say at this point that I don't think Jolly would be first ruckman at Melbourne but I believe he'd offer Jeff a lot better support than Jamar has.

I get the feeling we may have been a little complacent while Jeff White was in ripping form in 2004 with generally not playing a second ruck be it Jolly or Jamar. Then again they didn't really demand opportunities at the time so it's a tough one.

Jamar and PJ are struggling but good ruckman do not grow on trees and there are so few good ones around.

MFC has a challenge to develop a post Jeff White ruck strategy.

Agree entirely with all of the above.

I get the feeling we may have been a little complacent while Jeff White was in ripping form in 2004 with generally not playing a second ruck be it Jolly or Jamar. Then again they didn't really demand opportunities at the time so it's a tough one.

Agree entirely with all of the above.

Could be right.

PS. Captain Obvious award to RR =)