- Yes. We all know this. But even if you don't count his first year he's still in his second.

Its not the number of years but the age and the relative development of a player.

- He wasn't AWFUL in the pre-season. He played one senior match, then sent to Sandy seniors and was better than good. Yes it was VFL, and yes it was VFL pre-season, no-one's trying to say he's earned a callup in a full strength demons side, but times are tough RR. What demons there are playing are playing worse than the VFL team they are affiliated with.

Oh dear. You did not see the intra-club did you. Its was not a senior game. Its was half paced hit out and he was horrible...really horrible. The poor quality of the incumbent players does not make Newton a better player nor should sensibly altered his development

- Correct. He should/could play CHF. In fact, when he's gone there he's picked up marks, kicks, hard-ball gets... the lot.

Talk to Sandy about it. So is playing on the wing or playing CHF.

- Incorrect. By playing on the wing they're trying to get him to become more flexible as a player, so that when he does get promoted, he won't have to fight with the same 3 blokes to get a run. By playing him on the wing they have robbed him of his strengths. It hasn't worked. When he comes into his own, maybe he'll play there. But for now, there's nothing wrong with being a promising CHF, it was enough to get Miller a game at the same age, and yes, I'm aware of his physical attributes.

That's crap DD. Without the missing attributes to his game, Newton is actually robbing Newton of his strengths. Miller is no basis to suggest a strategy as he is not a CHF's bootlace.

-

- Some of the calls about Newton's promotion ARE bathed in naievity and ignorance. But not this one. This one is bathed in desperation and frustration. Too many of the players getting a game have little or no future, and have NO potential as KP forwards. Newton could come in and do little, or he could pull a Tomahawk and kick a few. Yes it's a risk, but WHENEVER he gets a game, this year or 2 years from now, the same will be true. At some point he'll go from being too young to play, to being "held back" too long. It's a question of timing, and while playing a guy too soon in his development can be a mistake, my feeling is he's no longer in this classifictaion.

You are letting your own desparation and frustration block your common sense. A player like newton is DEFINITELY a confidence player and he should be handled carefully. Refer intra-club match report. He got a sniff there and it was well well beyond him and he curled up like a ball.

- That last sentence will be true on his debut, whether it be now or years from now. I say give him a sniff. The team is not going to get anywhere in 2007 and beyond with SOME of the players being selected. And I'm NOT saying play the guy for 120 minutes out of the square. He can be played with little responsibility to get a feel for the pace...

Funny the issue of justifying his spot does not apply to him as it does others. Keep bathing.

if we just bring in a bunch of kids who aren't ready, then we're not giving ourselves a chance of salvaging our season...

we've got freo next week who've had a start almost as bad as ours... we're playing them at the G and still a good chance to win this one... we get one under our belt and get some confidence and we could be away... if we're half way through the season and we're 2-9 then we can play the kids, but in round 3? we still need to give ourselves the best chance of winning...

well said

I watched Newton on TV against Geelong and he was great after quarter time

Looked AFL ready to me

those who feel we can ....'salvage' the season...please qualify.:-)

..am not being nasty or such..just want to establish as to what level of accomplishment it is we attain to satisfy ..'job done"

we were mainly of the opinion going into this season that we ought ( indeed had to ) be top 4.. the maths is way way agaisnt this happening...so unles that can be got...no salvage is really on the horizon..is it ?

So then what do we do aspire to ??

Is near to good enough...?? and if so,,,how near is ...NEAR

or do we scrub all previous illusions and repaint the landscape with achievable outcomes.

if that's the case...what indeed can we achieve ? short term - probably not a lot.

or do we start to resculpt the team.. not rebuild.. as we do have most of the building blocks.. just possibly they arent where they need to be nor are some exeprienced enough .

So many will think it very un-supporter like to suggest we cut ourlosses and start looking afresh at 2008...but may I sugest if we have no win on board by the end of round 5 then any other interpretation of what is REAL is highly just fantasy.

By all means play out the game of 'salvage ' for a weel or two..hell even three....then start giving the kids...who are our future a go... we need to go forward...not back

Its not the number of years but the age and the relative development of a player.

Oh dear. You did not see the intra-club did you. Its was not a senior game. Its was half paced hit out and he was horrible...really horrible. The poor quality of the incumbent players does not make Newton a better player nor should sensibly altered his development

That's crap DD. Without the missing attributes to his game, Newton is actually robbing Newton of his strengths. Miller is no basis to suggest a strategy as he is not a CHF's bootlace.

You are letting your own desparation and frustration block your common sense. A player like newton is DEFINITELY a confidence player and he should be handled carefully. Refer intra-club match report. He got a sniff there and it was well well beyond him and he curled up like a ball.

Funny the issue of justifying his spot does not apply to him as it does others. Keep bathing.

(Not sure how you managed to put the quotes/answers in seperately, maybe you can drop me a PM)

- I agree there. My point is he IS physically ready. If you put a kid in who has the physical attricutes but is still 18, and going up against J. Brown, then you're a bit thick obviously. He is not 18, he has filled out and is physically taking the bigger guys on, hence...

- Aaaah. Yes. I didn't see it actually. On this I do concede a point. Against senior AFL players it appears he didn't show a yelp. But from what I understand you haven't seen too much of him at Sandy. Is this correct? I hope you've caught a televisation or two, though I fear it won't show his best work, which is sometimes off the ball.

- I still disagree here. One thing he perhaps lacks is a bit of speed, which I think he may need on the wing, as well as a touch more endurance. I doubt he's had much experience there either. This in itself is a good enough reason not to select him, but then I'm not arguing for him to be brought in as a flexible player, only as a last forward option. I mentioned Miller only because he was given a go at a VERY young age with nowhere near the talent Newton possesses. My point on physical attributes was only that perhaps Miller was played early because he showed he had a hard enough body.

- Absolutely. My common sense has gotten me NOWHERE when it has come to selection this year. My selections for players who will come on and prove their quality have let me down. I think this paragraph holds the most weight in your posts from above.

Newton is CERTAINLY a confidence player, or at least given the evidence, he is. You're spot on there, and he should be handled carefully. But just as a young confidence player can be set back by early failure, so can he become great with a handful of strong possessions. It's still a question of timing. Also, It's my feeling (disagree all you like, that's your business) that you place too much influence on a single inter (intra?)- club match. I fully understand your meaning when you say he was woeful, and believe me I don't mean to undermine your opinion on that match, but what I saw from him, albeit at Sandy, might as well have been a different player. I've seen a good few players played who have done less than he has in my time wandering around TBO. But again, it's my word against yours. It seems to me you are saying stay the course, don't play kids before their time, and I'm saying that although early, it's time to try something daring.

- The issue of justifying his spot hasnlt come up because he hasn't got one yet. He hasn't even had the chance. Justifying the spot of a 2, 20, 50 or 100 game player is different because there's more certain evidence to go on. I'm perfectly confident in what I've said regarding the positions in the 22 of players like Bate, Ward, Godders, CJ etc etc.

....Bathing in what, exactly RR? If it's desperation and frustration, sure, I'll bathe... I'll swim laps. But don't make the mistake of presuming I'm not using my brain here.

Although Newton has done nothing at Sandy firsts level and I personally feel he will struggle at this time at AFL level, if you are going to even look to play him this is the week. Fremantle aren't an over physical team their style is more we will take you on and kick more goals than you do usually high scoring games. Saying that though I think to take Freo on we need to inject speed. They are a hard running fast team, at the moment we look slow through the midfield, Buckley and Petterd have good speed these are the kids I would be looking at this week. But as stated if you want to see Newton, Freo would be one team you could do it against, I can't see ND doing it though.

- I agree there. My point is he IS physically ready. If you put a kid in who has the physical attricutes but is still 18, and going up against J. Brown, then you're a bit thick obviously. He is not 18, he has filled out and is physically taking the bigger guys on, hence...

Physically ready is only one part of it not the sole criteria of player dvelopment and that is where your argument if fundamentally flawed.

- Aaaah. Yes. I didn't see it actually. On this I do concede a point. Against senior AFL players it appears he didn't show a yelp. But from what I understand you haven't seen too much of him at Sandy. Is this correct? I hope you've caught a televisation or two, though I fear it won't show his best work, which is sometimes off the ball.

It makes your comment about his pre –season uninformed and naïve.

FWIW I have seen him play at Sandy often in the 2nds over the past two years and at training. I think I know what he can achieve.

I glad he is making some progress at Sandy but his intra club performance was disturbing. Having been exposed for not being across issues you wish to make statements about its rather unnecessary to imply that on someone else.

- I still disagree here. One thing he perhaps lacks is a bit of speed, which I think he may need on the wing, as well as a touch more endurance. I doubt he's had much experience there either. This in itself is a good enough reason not to select him, but then I'm not arguing for him to be brought in as a flexible player, only as a last forward option. I mentioned Miller only because he was given a go at a VERY young age with nowhere near the talent Newton possesses. My point on physical attributes was only that perhaps Miller was played early because he showed he had a hard enough body.

His biggest issue is understanding the disciplines of what is required for playing senior football and the focussing on the consistent application of his potential and what you have to do when you don’t have the ball. He is seriously green in that area and needs to develop it.

He had too much talent for Sandy 2s and would display his potential in short bursts but not apply for sustained periods. He was able to skirt by on irregular shows of skill not its consistent application.

Newton is one of the prime victims of the MFC/Sandy alliance. Baseed on his performances last year in Sandy 2s he deserves elevation to Sandy 1s. However his path was blocked primarily by Sautner but also having Dunn, Miller and 426 in Sandy. The problem still remains with Sautner. It would preferable for him to be FF but that wont happen while Sautner is fit.

As I said the experience on the wing keeps Newton within the play all the time and is constant reminder that talent is applied for 100 minutes and not in bursts.

As a person and a player Brad Miller is far more mature footballer at the same age. However he does not have the talent Newton has.

- Absolutely. My common sense has gotten me NOWHERE when it has come to selection this year. My selections for players who will come on and prove their quality have let me down. I think this paragraph holds the most weight in your posts from above.

Newton is CERTAINLY a confidence player, or at least given the evidence, he is. You're spot on there, and he should be handled carefully. But just as a young confidence player can be set back by early failure, so can he become great with a handful of strong possessions. It's still a question of timing. Also, It's my feeling (disagree all you like, that's your business) that you place too much influence on a single inter (intra?)- club match. I fully understand your meaning when you say he was woeful, and believe me I don't mean to undermine your opinion on that match, but what I saw from him, albeit at Sandy, might as well have been a different player. I've seen a good few players played who have done less than he has in my time wandering around TBO. But again, it's my word against yours. It seems to me you are saying stay the course, don't play kids before their time, and I'm saying that although early, it's time to try something daring.

I'd rather try tactics and selections that would bring about a win. Our short term situation is critical and I dont want to risk the long term development of players to do it. If ND is true to his word and that MFC will try and scrap a win I think there is even less space for Newton than in a normal situation.

- The issue of justifying his spot hasnlt come up because he hasn't got one yet. He hasn't even had the chance. Justifying the spot of a 2, 20, 50 or 100 game player is different because there's more certain evidence to go on. I'm perfectly confident in what I've said regarding the positions in the 22 of players like Bate, Ward, Godders, CJ etc etc.

Correct and he has not got a game because he has yet to demonstrate the requisite application to show that he is ready to make the next step. And as I said before, the crap form of other players does not make Newton any more ready than he is.

....Bathing in what, exactly RR? If it's desperation and frustration, sure, I'll bathe... I'll swim laps. But don't make the mistake of presuming I'm not using my brain here.

You are not think rationally on a fully informed basis and it undermines your argument.

P.S. When you reply to an e-mail there are quote marks above and below. Copy and paste those individually before and after the section you want to reply specifically to. There is probably easier ways but I will leave to the Nasher's of this world to advise.

P.S. When you reply to an e-mail there are quote marks above and below. Copy and paste those individually before and after the section you want to reply specifically to. There is probably easier ways but I will leave to the Nasher's of this world to advise.

Yep, it's the

tags that do the magic. There's no easy way of breaking it up, you have to manually put the tags in unfortunately.

Edit: Please try to avoid quoting this post, as you'll find it'll break your post

Yep, it's the tags that do the magic. There's no easy way of breaking it up, you have to manually put the tags in unfortunately.

I know you would know Nasher, you technological marvel!

Rhino your points are well made.

Always good to have the discussion.

Nice post, RR. As you say you've thought carefully about all the aspects, but I think the difference here lies in where we think we're going for 2007.

It makes your comment about his pre –season uninformed and naïve.

Hang on a second. I've seen plenty of what he can do, and I've missed ONE intra club game that you claim says more about what he can do than a month playing out of the square on AFL quality defenders. Now you may well be right in saying it has MORE to do with his AFL form than VFL, but I refuse to accept I'm either uninformed OR naive based on the comparison of what games he's played and where. And for the record, the decriptions of his form in this match, including yours, are not lost on me.

FWIW I have seen him play at Sandy often in the 2nds over the past two years and at training. I think I know what he can achieve.

That's what I thought.

I glad he is making some progress at Sandy but his intra club performance was disturbing. Having been exposed for not being across issues you wish to make statements about its rather unnecessary to imply that on someone else.

If that's the inference you thought I made, then that's regretful. I certainly never meant to imply you haven't seen enough of his footy, or any at all. If you take a look, you'll see I more-or-less assumed you'd seen your fair share, but couldn't be sure. So you've seen a fair bit from him? That's good, but since I assumed you had, changes little.

His biggest issue is understanding the disciplines of what is required for playing senior football and the focussing on the consistent application of his potential and what you have to do when you don’t have the ball. He is seriously green in that area and needs to develop it.

Agreed. I certainly think he's got MILES to go before he's a walkup selection.

It would preferable for him to be FF but that wont happen while Sautner is fit.

Actually, from what I've seen he'd make a premium CHF. It's this position that I see as more open and available down at Sandy. They've got a number of players rotating through there at the moment. Sauntner is absolutely ironclad as FF, but there's certainly room for Newton SOMEWHERE on the forward line.

As I said the experience on the wing keeps Newton within the play all the time and is constant reminder that talent is applied for 100 minutes and not in bursts.

Point conceded. Playing him out of the square for his ENTIRE time at Sandy would certainly limit him in terms of footy education.

I'd rather try tactics and selections that would bring about a win. Our short term situation is critical and I dont want to risk the long term development of players to do it. If ND is true to his word and that MFC will try and scrap a win I think there is even less space for Newton than in a normal situation.

It's here that we disagree. Call me naive (and I'm sure you won't miss the opportunity), but as far as I'm concerned we HAVE to be at very least 3-5 after round 8 to have only the slimmest chance of winning the flag in 2007. After round 3 I still thought we were a chance last year, and I stand by that. But this year, given the injuries, form, fixture and instability, I simply cannot see us being in a position to threaten for a flag in 2007. Yes we'll cmome good, and when these players with 4-8 week injuries come back, we'll be a different side, but not different enough. If you remember I said before the season started I had serious reservations about our year, and you convinced me (though not deliberately) to come around. As it turns out my prediction has turned out to be truer than I could have imagined. My focus in regards to MFC will have shifted after round 4, depending on the reult.

the crap form of other players does not make Newton any more ready than he is.

You are not think rationally on a fully informed basis and it undermines your argument.

Rationally? No. Informed? Yes, and I take umbridge to the suggestion I'm not "informed" about footy, even in this crisis.

As I've said numerous times, in a normally functioning 2007 MFC forwardline with the odd injury, there is absolutely no room for Juice given his current form. At the start of the year I had him pencilled in for a full year at Sandy, hopefully with his worst footy at the start of the year, and his best as the year wore on. If the demons were going along well, MAYBE there was room to sneak him in for a game or two if there was the odd hammy or corky, but that was absolutely best case scenario for him. As it stands, I believe the club is not even trying to get out of a tight spot. I reckon we're on the verge of a full-blown crisis that could stretch half a decade into the future, and ALL my football instincts are screaming out at me not to scrap the odd win, but to invest in the future absolutely AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Many have said we have shots at a flag in '07 and '08. As far as I'm concerned under these circumstances '07 is out of the question, and I have serious worries about '08.

Back on Juice, as I have said in a perfect world his form is NOWHERE NEAR good enough to get a game. But the MFC forward line is about as far from a perfect world as I can conceive of. But I'll concede the point... For now....Having Juice go it alone up there, with the help of only Miller, PJ, Jamar and a few other pinch-hitters is almost certain to be an insurmountable task for him, even just to get 10 touches and kick a couple in 60 minutes.

BTW thanks for the help, and when I hit the "add reply" button we'll see if this has worked. Oh, and thanks to you Nasher for the help in making demonland that little more aesthetically pleasing...

Ed: Heeeeeey, look at that! It worked!

Look I think we are close but certainly differ on where we are at as a club. I am as concerned about the injured players as I am about those who are not and who are not performing.

While mathematically we can make the Top 4 and the Top 8 still, I reckon we are extremely doubtful to figure in things this year and 2008 will depend upon an incoming coaches point of view on the list. My gut says we wont be it. Cant be more specific

Even so I still think you play players especially younger players based on their form and their capacity to perform at that level. The allegation made that ND is playing old favourites instead of the kids just aint valid so far as none have been fit and firing to go.

Newton's intra club match posed the question to me that in his 3rd year in the system "Do you really want to do what it takes to succeed?" His attitude and body language during the game was almost a sigh of resignation "Oh well, that's that I guess" That sort of thing you dont change overnight or in a few weeks. Newton has to build some core beliefs on which to base his confidence on. Until he has those and actually play like he believes in them its a waste of time.

If MFC are blooding Buckley, Pettard and Garland this week and trying to resurrect 2nd years Bate, Dunn and CJ in a crippled side its a hard and unreasonable ask to play a green kid who has critical issues at this point.

He may get there by year end but he may not. If he does he will get a run.

Newton's intra club match posed the question to me that in his 3rd year in the system "Do you really want to do what it takes to succeed?" His attitude and body language during the game was almost a sigh of resignation "Oh well, that's that I guess" That sort of thing you dont change overnight or in a few weeks.

Right. I reckon I've found what might be the core of our opposition here. I really can't emphasise enough that good form or not, The footy Newton has shown me so far has shown ABSOLUTELY NO sign of what you describe above. He's been the exact opposite actually. There could be a number of reasons for this, and I'm certainly not saying you're making things up. However, it's certainly confusing. One thing's for certain though, he's no Bartram.

If MFC are blooding Buckley, Pettard and Garland this week and trying to resurrect 2nd years Bate, Dunn and CJ in a crippled side its a hard and unreasonable ask to play a green kid who has critical issues at this point.

Very sage. Though I'm really confused about this whole Garland thing. The way I see it, he's not that much closer to the side than Weetra. He had 2 opportunistic goals last week, and after that didn't do a whole lot. He seems like he has a future, but is MILES off as far as I'm concerned. If the match committee see something, then that's fine. But by gee, I've not seen enough yet...

Winning games should be our no.1 priority, I'm not prepared to start conceding the year and looking to 2010 yet.

However I'd be disappointed if these guys (yet to debut) didn't get a game this year:

1) Petterd

2) Buckley

Pretty self evident - two young midfielders who should be developed enough to handle AFL footy.

3) Newton

RR has made some very strong arguments for him to be held back until he "gets it right". I put Newton up with some trepidation, however if and when Neitz and/or Robbo get back in the side the time may be right to give young Newton a taste of the big league. Even if it's only in bursts on and off the bench to play as a third tall forward. Hopefully he "gets it right" and can get an MFC guernsey in 07.

Last night i had a dream that i was sitting at the game and the team came up on the score board as it does before every game...

The good news is pettard was on the board, as was buckley and Newton.

There were also some names i couldnt make out, i think Weetra was one of them cause it had a W in it.

The best was Frawley at CHB

Could it happen?? Is it a sign??

I hope so, obviously not all of them are going to play but a couple would be nice now.

Namely, Pettard Buckley and Frawley (pity about the injuries)

Even though i was arguing for bizzel in the forward line last week i think im swinging towards juice getting a go, even with out neitz, just because if we arent going to play bizz then we have no other option.

Basically, I think the loss of Neitz and Robertson has been a big shock to the sytem. 1998 was the last time neither of them were in the same side. This has been compounded by the loss of Rivers and Mclean, and the form slumps of Davey, Charrol and Johnstone.

In the absece of these key players, responability has fallen on players who just can't match what these have brought to the side, and not just in terms of skill.

Robertson and Neitz are our 2 biggest targets. Now when we get to the forward line, we fall apart. If I recall correctly, last week's centre-breaks were well in our favour.

There were no natural forwards in that team, except for Green and an out of form Davey. With the exception of Green, no one has come close to filling the void. Therfore I think it's time for either Dunn or Newton to take their place, Sylvia would be very handy.