Correct. This is why the Doggies and St Kilda have bounced back after a couple of years of bottoming out - they still have a nucleus of experienced players who have played finals footy.

We are starting from a point way back from these clubs - effectively the same as GWS and GC but without the massive concessions.

IMO the only option is to bring in players like Daniel Cross, who I think has been our best pick up overall, to nurture our potentially great young guns in the right way to go about their footy.

we started behind GWS & the Suns, because our culture was weak-kneed, soft, & self serving. theirs (gws - gcs) started fresh from birth.

so we had work to do to undo the rotten culture, that is a hard job to do. we are still doing this as we rebuild at the same time.

the key is to not recruit any who are a fit, more like our old ways.

Think Roos/Goodwin need to trade some under performing senior players who are now becoming liabilities enough is enough!!!

they have been, & are.

These posts make me sick. 8 years at the bottom and we are still behind? Seriously??

this just shows how unknowing you are, about how soft we drifted after the mid 90's... its a very gradual process covered by top 8 finishes, disguising whats happening underneath our cultures skirts.

you can't see it happening unless you know what to look for & are paranoid ly vigilant, & payed to watch for it.

Yes - because after the first year or so, we got rid of the likes of Bruce and MacDonald. Even if they only had a year or two left, they would still have been around to mentor the young guys.

Then we tanked for a year or two to get the top draft picks, which the hierarchy believed would be the making of our club.

Then we appointed two kids as captains and expected them to create a new culture under Neeld.

All this, whilst the new expansion clubs - GWS especially - have had an obscene amount of trade and cap concessions. At the same time, the off-field administration had been run by an apparently self-serving dummkopf, a number one draft pick has [censored] off to the AFL's pet project and we have been rogered with a $ half a mill fine for the aforementioned tanking.

I don't know what the answer is, but I can't fathom how we can tear Geelong a new one at their place and then not have the momentum or will to hand a hiding to the Bombers and avenge the previous Saints defeat.

those leaders were a part of the problem as well.

when you have a family illness which attacks your families DNA, & binds to its DNA chain, sometimes you must seperate those family members from the newborn so as to avoid passing the illness on.

we made a mistake with Jnr.... we should have kept Jnr, & traded Davey, Green, & Bruce for picks.

Jnr had an attitude like Crossy has, for hard work & no shortcuts. the others were all sparkle & pop, & no real inner go!

this just shows how unknowing you are, about how soft we drifted after the mid 90's... its a very gradual process covered by top 8 finishes, disguising whats happening underneath our cultures skirts.

you can't see it happening unless you know what to look for & are paranoid ly vigilant, & payed to watch for it.

It's not just culture. We overlooked too many footballers - and drafted too many athletes.

West Coast taken a lot of the kids we SHOULD have, they are sitting near the top, we are sitting near the bottom.

Their culture was arguably worse than ours. They just drafted competitive footballers, as they always have.

Culture is just something this club sells it's supporters to get them off of their backs. It is an easy justification for mediocrity.

They are hardly going to come and say that we drafted sub par football players with quality picks, and that is why we are an ordinary football club.

Agree with a lot of what you say but this was a big mistake. The Pies laughed all the way to the bank on this trade...

Cross and Vince are the ones that have had a big impact...

I disagree that it was a mistake because at the time it was clearly necessary.

Neeld, (for everything he did wrong) rightly saw the complete lack of professional leaders at our club. Players who had a natural willingness to compete for example.

I understand Dawes is way underperforming, his form has been horrible this year and his skills have always been questionable, but his addition to our club at that time was again the result of a failed previous coaching tenure and ability to address serious problems with our list. One being the lack of professional senior figures at our club.

Dawes is much less of a failure than Rodan and Byrnes.

But yes, what we are seeing now with him is again just intergenerational list problems.

your both right, it was the right choice at that time, but it cost us too much for him... fortunately Qball failed they're transitioning & cloke is still suffering for it.

its time for us to do a transition from Dawesy. he has a job to do but being a marking tall isn't it, & Hogan needs a tall marking partner, now! not in 3 yrs time.

time to get Henderson in, as a marking target who will help from game1, 2016.

It's not just culture. We overlooked too many footballers - and drafted too many athletes.

West Coast taken a lot of the kids we SHOULD have, they are sitting near the top, we are sitting near the bottom.

Their culture was arguably worse than ours. They just drafted competitive footballers, as they always have.

Culture is just something this club sells it's supporters to get them off of their backs. It is an easy justification for mediocrity.

They are hardly going to come and say that we drafted sub par football players with quality picks, and that is why we are an ordinary football club.

yes, but horse before the cart KDA.

our own experience shows us that bringing fresh players in to a terribly weak culture for hard contested sport, & for winning, only serves to weaken the newcomers. they can't help it, unless they are a Hodge, or a Selwwod.. rare.

.... you have to remove the leaders who are infected by the softness first, & the weakest individuals who thrive on the poor culture & try to maintain it.

our off-field club leaders didn't understand this after 2007 > , & unfortunately mucked it up. but at least we had started the work, but we've had to redo it a couple of times, & are finally onto some people who know the way to do it.

...... but peoples patience is understandably running very thin.... especially with the slow transition of draftees into senior footy, but this is the way to do it rightly. this is how it should have been done from 2007. slowly.

Yes, the problem is driven by off field issues.

this started when we sacked a coach who was doing ok (Norm smith or the rev, take your pick), only to then sack his replacement, who was also doing OK. We had a management team in place that bought in tanking, could make money to save themselves, was very much stuck in a boys club mode where everything will be OK in the end, and they ran us into the ground. They also oversaw the sacking of all our experienced players, including our captain. Something we rue to this day as what we have clearly lacked is experience guiding the players, St Kilda have it, the dogs have it, and look at how they are going! Going with youth is only good to a point, you need the wise heads around. Look at the difference between GC and GWS for more evidence. Our players lack knowledge of what is required and have had their confidence smashed as a result. Add to this a development team that has to be the worst in AFL history, and a recruiting department who were OK, but not great, and made to look worse by appalling development and things go from bad to worse.

Then Jimmy came in a cleared the debt (only to go into debt sacking more people) but he was still bound by the boys club, but to a lesser degree than others. Then the board made their worst mistake, hiring Neeld. Neeld may well have actually been an OK coach, he was not good at reading a groups of players and managing them, he lost them before he coached his first game, and if not then then he certainly did after it. The less said about this period the better, suffice to say we continued going backwards from when the rev was sacked.

Then came the sacking of Neeld, to me this is the beginning of the resurrection. From around this point we have a CEO in place who knows what he is doing, we have a recruiting team in place who are doing a great job, we have a development team in place who so far seem to be doing very well with the likes of Brayshaw, Salem, Watts (the fact he needs development is an indictment of how bad the previous development team were), and others, we have a coaching panel in place that is stable (although many on here seem to be thinking Roos should go, massive mistake purely due tot he instability it would create) with the players knowing who is coaching for the next 4.5 years.

Yes we are bad, but we are getting better, we are just coming from miles back due to the reasons listed above. The biggest of which was removing the experienced players, not only have we missed the experience but we have had to use draft picks and trades to bring other experience back in to the team!

How about for once in this clubs history we actually stick out a plan to the end instead of jumping off half way because it doesn't look good, and then having to start all over again!

don't agree, sorry

its the pervading culture that got Smithy out, & the the other coach fell into bed with this culture, after about his 4th year.

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by dee-luded

Then Jimmy came in a cleared the debt (only to go into debt sacking more people) but he was still bound by the boys club, but to a lesser degree than others. Then the board made their worst mistake, hiring Neeld. Neeld may well have actually been an OK coach, he was not good at reading a groups of players and managing them, he lost them before he coached his first game, and if not then then he certainly did after it. The less said about this period the better, suffice to say we continued going backwards from when the rev was sacked.

There worst mistake is hard to quantify. I think there were a few major mistakes made at board level before Neeld was appointed that I will never forgive them for and it's why we are where we are now.

In no order they were, the hiring of CS, the sacking of Bailey and the way it was handled, allowing Stynes to stay on as President when ill and clearly unable to do the job required, leading to Lyon coming in as some kind of consultant to help his mate Jim out when he had no qualification to do so.

The board should have put the interests of the members first, it didn't and it was an absolute disgrace.

don't agree, sorry

its the pervading culture that got Smithy out, & the the other coach fell into bed with this culture, after about his 4th year.

And that culture is one of entitlement which has in the past been lead from the top, hence I say it is off field although it probably started before I stated. It was not however lead by the players, or the coaches, it came from the boys club on the board.

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by Chris

There worst mistake is hard to quantify. I think there were a few major mistakes made at board level before Neeld was appointed that I will never forgive them for and it's why we are where we are now.

In no order they were, the hiring of CS, the sacking of Bailey and the way it was handled, allowing Stynes to stay on as President when ill and clearly unable to do the job required, leading to Lyon coming in as some kind of consultant to help his mate Jim out when he had no qualification to do so.

The board should have put the interests of the members first, it didn't and it was an absolute disgrace.

The boys club at work!

There worst mistake is hard to quantify. I think there were a few major mistakes made at board level before Neeld was appointed that I will never forgive them for and it's why we are where we are now.

In no order they were, the hiring of CS, the sacking of Bailey and the way it was handled, allowing Stynes to stay on as President when ill and clearly unable to do the job required, leading to Lyon coming in as some kind of consultant to help his mate Jim out when he had no qualification to do so.

The board should have put the interests of the members first, it didn't and it was an absolute disgrace.

This was definitely the penultimate moment that really threw us in the crap after a struggle that was bad enough.

We had to manage the list very well after Daniher's period - if we didn't recruit well to replace an ageing list with very poor young talent, we were always going to spend a long time in the cellar. And we recruited worse than anyone could have imagined.

BP was a result of all those very poor appointments. People who had little real skill and knowledge in successfully running a football club.

We as the members are the ones who have to pay for it the most.

This was definitely the penultimate moment that really threw us in the crap after a struggle that was bad enough.

We had to manage the list very well after Daniher's period - if we didn't recruit well to replace an ageing list with very poor young talent, we were always going to spend a long time in the cellar. And we recruited worse than anyone could have imagined.

BP was a result of all those very poor appointments. People who had little real skill and knowledge in successfully running a football club.

We as the members are the ones who have to pay for it the most.

But will we continue?

Some dropped by the wayside yesterday I am sure.

2016 is going to be a "Show me the Money" year for a lot of members

And that culture is one of entitlement which has in the past been lead from the top, hence I say it is off field. It was not lead by the players, or the coaches, it came from the boys club on the board.

We agree, we just have a different view of what is on or off field.

YES, but you said the last ten years which encourqaqges people to look at only the last TEN years, as the problem; & by extension the search for reason to fault, then lays with the people of that 10 years... but this is wrong, & its why we continually FAIL to see the truth.

the truth is we were getting big heads on field from 20 years back, & off field, allowed a lot of arrogance & then complacency in; which infects people without their knowing...

the rot has entered the house & the spores are slowly finding their ways into every little crack, crevice, into the paint, the urinal, shower everywhere & it grows.

the culture either grows upward, or its let slip & grows downward.... & the new kids then learn the methods they are exposed to in they're time.

we started slowly going down during the mid 90's.

it was onshow in the 2000 Grand final, where we were smashed to bits, & intimidated.. like little boys.

it continued with soft C's playing in our jumper after that, who wouldn't do the dirty work required, crashing bodies, chasing, rag dolling, taking a hit to get that special disposal away to a teammate,

so we had players who wouldn't chase, who would talk big, but did nothing. talents all, but soft C's..... & so it was; that all the new kids grew under those soft C leaders.

so mcclean sylvia davey etc etc all turned out as they did, the nice boys next door.

.

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by dee-luded

YES, but you said the last ten years which encourqaqges people to look at only the last TEN years, as the problem; & by extension the search for reason to fault, then lays with the people of that 10 years... but this is wrong, & its why we continually FAIL to see the truth.

the truth is we were getting big heads on field from 20 years back, & off field, allowed a lot of arrogance & then complacency in; which infects people without their knowing...

the rot has entered the house & the spores are slowly finding their ways into every little crack, crevice, into the paint, the urinal, shower everywhere & it grows.

the culture either grows upward, or its let slip & grows downward.... & the new kids then learn the methods they are exposed to in they're time.

we started slowly going down during the mid 90's.

it was onshow in the 2000 Grand final, where we were smashed to bits, & intimidated.. like little boys.

it continued with soft C's playing in our jumper after that, who wouldn't do the dirty work required, crashing bodies, chasing, rag dolling, taking a hit to get that special disposal away to a teammate,

so we had players who wouldn't chase, who would talk big, but did nothing. talents all, but soft C's..... & so it was; that all the new kids grew under those soft C leaders.

so mcclean sylvia davey etc etc all turned out as they did, the nice boys next door.

.

You are right on the time frame and I changed my post to reflect that.

Don't necessarily agree with the arrogance tag, more entitled and definitely a boys club through and through. Comes back to the private school boys running the place, they think it is like business where who you know is as important, if not more so, than what you know. That doesn't work in football and you get found out, as we have been many times.

I think the new regime are going a long way to removing this crap.

On another note, I wouldn't lump Davey in with the bunch of footballers who wouldn't tackle or chase, he is credited with inventing the modern version of forward pressure by doing those exact things.

But will we continue?

Some dropped by the wayside yesterday I am sure.

2016 is going to be a "Show me the Money" year for a lot of members

That should have been this year OD. I'm not sure how long I'll continue. I know we've improved a bit but it's just not enough for me, I just don't have the patience to wait another 4 years until we make the finals.

Up to each supporter whether or not they continue and if they decide not to, I wouldn't judge them for it. It's completely justified.

That should have been this year OD. I'm not sure how long I'll continue. I know we've improved a bit but it's just not enough for me, I just don't have the patience to wait another 4 years until we make the finals.

Up to each supporter whether or not they continue and if they decide not to, I wouldn't judge them for it. It's completely justified.

Sorry I did not explain that well.

I meant that a lot of members will wait to see how 2016 unfolds in the first month before committing their money.

Sorry I did not explain that well.

I meant that a lot of members will wait to see how 2016 unfolds in the first month before committing their money.

Oh okay. Well I'm sure there have been plenty doing that recently.

You are right on the time frame and I changed my post to reflect that.

Don't necessarily agree with the arrogance tag, more entitled and definitely a boys club through and through. Comes back to the private school boys running the place, they think it is like business where who you know is as important, if not more so, than what you know. That doesn't work in football and you get found out, as we have been many times.

I think the new regime are going a long way to removing this crap.

On another note, I wouldn't lump Davey in with the bunch of footballers who wouldn't tackle or chase, he is credited with inventing the modern version of forward pressure by doing those exact things.

there is an air of wanting to rub shoulders with "importance".... this is an arrogance, that by extension of the arm, can touch the shoulder cloth of someone they look up to, via a shoulder pat.

the trouble with this "(part)" of the culture, begins when those getting touched, are under 22 years of age. & have done nothing but get drafted.

another issue is the people who want to get on the band wagon & lead, simply because they are business leaders, but have not done any grass roots footy club leading, & have an arrogance because of their successes in business...... see the AFL, MFC, & all sorts of big sporting clubs who start to fail. & they don't understand what it is they doing wrong. they just don't get IT.

" turn on" the people, & eventually when they've had enough, they will turn & bite you.

You are right on the time frame and I changed my post to reflect that.

Don't necessarily agree with the arrogance tag, more entitled and definitely a boys club through and through. Comes back to the private school boys running the place, they think it is like business where who you know is as important, if not more so, than what you know. That doesn't work in football and you get found out, as we have been many times.

I think the new regime are going a long way to removing this crap.

On another note, I wouldn't lump Davey in with the bunch of footballers who wouldn't tackle or chase, he is credited with inventing the modern version of forward pressure by doing those exact things.

Davey didn't bring players down he just chased then like a yappy puppy dog. so yes Davey was very soft, very. Davey was afraid of getting hurt, so he was in the wrong job.

lead by example even if you fear the job... no 2 ways around this, in the elite competition...... non negotiable's !

That should have been this year OD. I'm not sure how long I'll continue. I know we've improved a bit but it's just not enough for me, I just don't have the patience to wait another 4 years until we make the finals.

Up to each supporter whether or not they continue and if they decide not to, I wouldn't judge them for it. It's completely justified.

send your ticket, cut in 2, to the AFL. if enough do this, they will start to take heed.

there is an air of wanting to rub shoulders with "importance".... this is an arrogance, that by extension of the arm, can touch the shoulder cloth of someone they look up to, via a shoulder pat.

the trouble with this "(part)" of the culture, begins when those getting touched, are under 22 years of age. & have done nothing but get drafted.

another issue is the people who want to get on the band wagon & lead, simply because they are business leaders, but have not done any grass roots footy club leading, & have an arrogance because of their successes in business...... see the AFL, MFC, & all sorts of big sporting clubs who start to fail. & they don't understand what it is they doing wrong. they just don't get IT.

" turn on" the people, & eventually when they've had enough, they will turn & bite you.

So that would be the private school type boys club culture I have been speaking about then. Thanks for clearing it up.

Davey didn't bring players down he just chased then like a yappy puppy dog. so yes Davey was very soft, very. Davey was afraid of getting hurt, so he was in the wrong job.

lead by example even if you fear the job... no 2 ways around this, in the elite competition...... non negotiable's !

We have very different memories of Davey then

We have very different memories of Davey then

I don't think Davey was soft at all. He had brain fades at times, but didn't stand out as soft to me. Was a quality player.

Edit: Was a quality player, most of the time.

Edited July 27, 20159 yr by Django

man , this team needs an Aaron Davey badly... blistering speed and elite foot skills .... almost feel like he was taken for granted now we are screaming out for that type.