Disclaimer – still in emotional despair after attending the match yesterday.

Jack Viney has managed to avoid the blowtorch so far. His second half of the season has been average (at best) and his game today was utterly shocking (12 disposals, 58.3% de). When Roos talks about players missing handballs he is talking about Jack Viney (among others).

I do not know whether he is low on confidence, carrying an injury or simply a young player getting tired, but the following stats just aren’t good enough:

Over the last 8 weeks (averages):

Kicks – 8 pg

Handballs – 9.5 pg

Disposals – 17.5 pg

Disposal efficiency – 62.3%

You look at those stats and say, hmm he’s young, it’s his 2^nd season give him a rest, but let’s dig a little deeper.

Effective disposals – 10.875

Inneffective/ clangers – 6.75

Clearances – 3.375

With clearances counting as an effective disposal, when you subtract his clearances from effective disposals he averages 7.5 effective disposals per game. Feel free to re-read that. He averages 10.875 effective disposals per game, excluding clearances he averages 7.5 effective disposals in general play per game. Yesterday he had 4 clearances in his 12 disposals (4 kicks/ 8 handballs), he had 7 effective disposals, he had 3 effective disposals that weren’t clearances.

Now let’s go with the relatively safe assumption that the majority of his clearances are kicks, to simplify the numbers above let’s say he averages 3.5 per week, 2 are kicks, 1.5 are handballs. That would leave the following averages:

Kicks (in general play) – 6 pg

Handballs (in general pay) – 8 pg

Disposals (excl. clearances) – 14 pg

Disposal efficiency (in general play) – 52.6%

Effective disposals (in general play) – 7.5 pg

In general play, over the last 8 weeks, Jack Viney has averaged less effective possessions than handballs.

Yeah, he's not the only one stinking it up. Yeah, he's young. Yeah, he goes in hard. Yeah, he is the future. Yeah, if we had better midfield support he would do better. But, those stats don't stack up, send him back to the VFL for the last 2 weeks to get some confidence back. Despite his obvious flaws, it's hard to argue that McKenzie would have contributed less than Viney did yesterday, give him (or anyone else) a 2 week farewell as a thank you for his service to the club.

Yesterdays game showed that the excuse of younger players tiring through a long season is bulldust. GWS youngsters did not look tired at all and have travelled much more then ours have.

He looks tired, which makes sense in only his second year, and first full season in the AFL. Tyson had a similar dip in form this year.

What makes me sad is that he still goes head first into everything, but he has so few "leaders" around him he can look up to.

If I was him I'd look at Jones and see how a genuinly excellent player has now wasted effectively more than half his career in a side that is not worthy of his efforts.

It's a sad state of affairs, when we are looking to 2nd year kids to lead the charge. Personally I thought Cross had a shocker yesterday, as did Vince who floats in and out of games. Jamar also did nothing to help the midfield. These are the players we should look at and say "poor performance", not Viney or Tyson or Michie or anyone who has been thrown to the wolves due to circumstances, where realistically in a good side they would be the 4th maybe 5th midfielder getting little to no attention each week.

And don't get me started on so called leaders in Frawley and Dawes who were less than inspiring.

Yesterdays game showed that the excuse of younger players tiring through a long season is bulldust. GWS youngsters did not look tired at all and have travelled much more then ours have.

GWS have had an equally poor season. Some weeks they were up and most weeks they were down. Just like us.

Have a look at what happened to GC after they lost Ablett.

Of course I am not making any excuses, we were disgusting yesterday and nothing and nobody should excuse that. But I'm far more disappointed in our senior players than I am in the kids.

Let also remember he did ZERO% of the preseason.

GWS have had an equally poor season. Some weeks they were up and most weeks they were down. Just like us.

Have a look at what happened to GC after they lost Ablett.

Of course I am not making any excuses, we were disgusting yesterday and nothing and nobody should excuse that. But I'm far more disappointed in our senior players than I am in the kids.

When talking about the new draftees, didn't Roos say something along the lines of: "You are not the saviours of this football club." You sort of show a bit of leniency towards the younger guys, so long as we're seeing patches of development and improvement along the way.

Jaded nailed it; the senior players need to shoulder the baulk of responsibility after a performance like yesterday.

When talking about the new draftees, didn't Roos say something along the lines of: "You are not the saviours of this football club." You sort of show a bit of leniency towards the younger guys, so long as we're seeing patches of development and improvement along the way.

Jaded nailed it; the senior players need to shoulder the baulk of responsibility after a performance like yesterday.

It doesnt mean we shouldnt expect improvement.

At the moment none of our young players are showing much improvement.

Jack viney ain't too blame for yesterday or our recent form. He has been dissapointing the 2nd half of the year but I think the blowtorch should well and truly be on blokes like, Howe, garland, jamar, grimes, watts, Dawes, frawley(who cares tho his gone)

Jack viney ain't too blame for yesterday or our recent form. He has been dissapointing the 2nd half of the year but I think the blowtorch should well and truly be on blokes like, Howe, garland, jamar, grimes, watts, Dawes, frawley(who cares tho his gone)

The point of my op wasn't to blame Viney, it was to highlight just how shocking his disposal is. He needs time in the VFL to get some confidence back. We can't gift games to players who average less effective disposals than handballs.

The point of my op wasn't to blame Viney, it was to highlight just how shocking his disposal is. He needs time in the VFL to get some confidence back. We can't gift games to players who average less effective disposals than handballs.

If there were players knocking down the door at Casey to get a game then it might be looked at but....

This is the trouble, the list needs a total overhaul. We will see more than half of it turned over in the next 2 years.

WTF is going on on Demonland?

You're seriously putting that much research into bagging a second year player?!

There's now popular threads about a forward in the worst inside 50 team in the comp, and a second year midfielder... Is this the first year you guys have watched footy?!

This is where the blowtorch should be:

-Our onfield leadership

-Our game plan

-Our lack of fitness when compared to a younger team who have 1 rotation for a half

-The form of our peak age players who have no excuses: Frawley, Watts, Grimes, Garland, Jamar

-The amazing disappearance of spirit and effort as the season has gone on

Not a barely 20 year old player who shouldn't have the responsibility of having to be one of our best players yet.

FFS.

He's in his second year, he's developing - point your blowtorch elsewhere.

WTF is going on on Demonland?

You're seriously putting that much research into bagging a second year player?!

There's now popular threads about a forward in the worst inside 50 team in the comp, and a second year midfielder... Is this the first year you guys have watched footy?!

This is where the blowtorch should be:

-Our onfield leadership

-Our game plan

-Our lack of fitness when compared to a younger team who have 1 rotation for a half

-The form of our peak age players who have no excuses: Frawley, Watts, Grimes, Garland, Jamar

-The amazing disappearance of spirit and effort as the season has gone on

Not a barely 20 year old player who shouldn't have the responsibility of having to be one of our best players yet.

FFS.

Nailed it stuie - I can't like this post enough.

Disclaimer – still in emotional despair after attending the match yesterday.

Jack Viney has managed to avoid the blowtorch so far. His second half of the season has been average (at best) and his game today was utterly shocking (12 disposals, 58.3% de). When Roos talks about players missing handballs he is talking about Jack Viney (among others).

I do not know whether he is low on confidence, carrying an injury or simply a young player getting tired, but the following stats just aren’t good enough:

Over the last 8 weeks (averages):

Kicks – 8 pg

Handballs – 9.5 pg

Disposals – 17.5 pg

Disposal efficiency – 62.3%

You look at those stats and say, hmm he’s young, it’s his 2^nd season give him a rest, but let’s dig a little deeper.

Effective disposals – 10.875

Inneffective/ clangers – 6.75

Clearances – 3.375

With clearances counting as an effective disposal, when you subtract his clearances from effective disposals he averages 7.5 effective disposals per game. Feel free to re-read that. He averages 10.875 effective disposals per game, excluding clearances he averages 7.5 effective disposals in general play per game. Yesterday he had 4 clearances in his 12 disposals (4 kicks/ 8 handballs), he had 7 effective disposals, he had 3 effective disposals that weren’t clearances.

Now let’s go with the relatively safe assumption that the majority of his clearances are kicks, to simplify the numbers above let’s say he averages 3.5 per week, 2 are kicks, 1.5 are handballs. That would leave the following averages:

Kicks (in general play) – 6 pg

Handballs (in general pay) – 8 pg

Disposals (excl. clearances) – 14 pg

Disposal efficiency (in general play) – 52.6%

Effective disposals (in general play) – 7.5 pg

In general play, over the last 8 weeks, Jack Viney has averaged less effective possessions than handballs.

Yeah, he's not the only one stinking it up. Yeah, he's young. Yeah, he goes in hard. Yeah, he is the future. Yeah, if we had better midfield support he would do better. But, those stats don't stack up, send him back to the VFL for the last 2 weeks to get some confidence back. Despite his obvious flaws, it's hard to argue that McKenzie would have contributed less than Viney did yesterday, give him (or anyone else) a 2 week farewell as a thank you for his service to the club.

You put THAT much work into the bagging him out stats yet you ignore the fact that our run and spread is horrible which effects the numbers, and then you suggest bringing in a guy who averages 12.9 disposals which if you take away clangers and clearances is 8.9.

Wow.

Here's YOUR FORMULA applied to YOUR PICK of player to replace him...

Jordie McKenzie - 9.9 effective disposals per game.

Minus clearances (1.6) that's 8.3

Divided by his disposal efficiency = 6.4pg (you had Viney as 7.5)

Wow, what a step up that would be.....

You put THAT much work into the bagging him out stats yet you ignore the fact that our run and spread is horrible which effects the numbers, and then you suggest bringing in a guy who averages 12.9 disposals which if you take away clangers and clearances is 8.9.

Wow.

A) it's an improvement

B) Viney should be part of that run and spread

C) I don't want to see another young player go backwards

D) I'd rather see farewell games for the likes of a jordie/ Nicho than gift Viney games

E) he can't kick or handball with accuracy or consistency

There's a lot of things to like about Viney, but on his form, do you think he should be getting a game?

Oh and not only that, but you'd be bringing in someone who averages HALF AS MANY clearances into a team that is currently ranked 17th for them.

A) it's an improvement

B) Viney should be part of that run and spread

C) I don't want to see another young player go backwards

D) I'd rather see farewell games for the likes of a jordie/ Nicho than gift Viney games

E) he can't kick or handball with accuracy or consistency

There's a lot of things to like about Viney, but on his form, do you think he should be getting a game?

On YOUR FORMULA here's what you want:

OUT: Viney (7.5pg)

IN: McKenzie (6.4pg)

Not to mention Viney averages twice as many clearances team for the 17th ranked clearance team in the comp.

His performance isnt a concern. His plateuing improvement is.

On YOUR FORMULA here's what you want:

OUT: Viney (7.5pg)

IN: McKenzie (6.4pg)

Not to mention Viney averages twice as many clearances team for the 17th ranked clearance team in the comp.

No you're right. We should accept a standard less than mediocre from one of our brightest prospects. Giving him a run in the 2's to get some form/ confidence wouldn't hurt.

You've focused on the throwaway line on who should replace him, rather than the below par performances he has given over the 2nd half of the season.

I'd like to come and live in your world of sunshine and happiness.

Edit: as I asked before, on his current form does he deserve to play week in week out?

No you're right. We should accept a standard less than mediocre from one of our brightest prospects. Giving him a run in the 2's to get some form/ confidence wouldn't hurt.

You've focused on the throwaway line on who should replace him, rather than the below par performances he has given over the 2nd half of the season.

I'd like to come and live in your world of sunshine and happiness.

Edit: as I asked before, on his current form does he deserve to play week in week out?

You don't think it's relevant to discuss who would come in that would do better? That's exactly what Roos is focused on and what culture is all about, kinda important mate.

I think on his current form and the form of our players at Casey he definitely stays in the team.

It's not sunshine and happiness, it's reality, and the reality is it's our 23-28 year olds that are letting us down, not our 18-20 year olds.

How can you put up all those stats and not mention the ones that clearly show him to be among our best three workers - game-high 25 pressure acts.

Watch the replay and you see him chasing and running hard when others don't bother - does that make him tired and in need of a break?

Rohan Bail is another who chases with intent and those who have been knocking him may now realise that even though he turns it over a bit, he is worth his place until we find other more polished hard-working midfielders.

Sure Jack Viney's kicking efficiency has been down of late, but so to has Dunny's and a stack of others because we are getting beaten when we go up the line - partially because half the team now spreads laterally so as to be part of a cheap easy sideways kick.

A) it's an improvement

B) Viney should be part of that run and spread

C) I don't want to see another young player go backwards

D) I'd rather see farewell games for the likes of a jordie/ Nicho than gift Viney games

E) he can't kick or handball with accuracy or consistency

There's a lot of things to like about Viney, but on his form, do you think he should be getting a game?

On what basis should we be giving "farewell games" to park footballers like McKenzie (who still has a year on his contract if I'm not mistaken) and Nicholson? They're not exactly at the level of Robbo and Whelan who were great servants of the club.

How can you put up all those stats and not mention the ones that clearly show him to be among our best three workers - game-high 25 pressure acts.

Watch the replay and you see him chasing and running hard when others don't bother - does that make him tired and in need of a break?

Rohan Bail is another who chases with intent and those who have been knocking him may now realise that even though he turns it over a bit, he is worth his place until we find other more polished hard-working midfielders.

Sure Jack Viney's kicking efficiency has been down of late, but so to has Dunny's and a stack of others because we are getting beaten when we go up the line - partially because half the team now spreads laterally so as to be part of a cheap easy sideways kick.

Excellent point, on several occasions yesterday Viney was busting his arse off to chase harass and pressure the opposition; we need as much of thay in the team as we can get.

...give him (or anyone else) a 2 week farewell as a thank you for his service to the club.

We can't gift games to players