Contested Possessions

[jabberwocky 2,301]

The simplest bit of this argument is to say all plays start with contested possession when the ball is thrown up and all finals are played with intense pressure and contests. Therefore it all starts with contested possession.

[rpfc 28,407]

We were 16th in contested possession in 2013, so yeah....we need to improve this area as priority 1.

We were also a long way behind in Uncontested Possession so we need to get better there too. Getting the ball from a contest will obviously give us more chances of keeping hold of it.

We were bottom 2 in both.

And yes, getting a contested ball is important.

If uncontested possessions were as important as contested ones Joel Bowden would have been lauded as a great player.

A chain of posessions that good sides create originate largely from a contest.

If you believe that uncontested posessiion is as important as contested posession then you should take it up with our current coach.

He will tell you that you are wrong.

It is so incredibly obvious.

It is as important because the both require each other to be 'efficient' - a team needs both.

Just a stupid post for someone who should know better.

Magner is a poor user which is nearly as useless as a good user who doesn't get it.

Of course you need to be efficient at both, but how do you propose to get the football into your hands to start a chain of possession?

Still cannot believe that reasonable people can make a debate of this. It is footy kindergarten stuff.

I tell you what. I will stick all only contested ball winners in my team at 50% de and you can have all uncontested players in your team with 100% de. Reckon my boys will win.

http://blog.tomwaterhouse.com/afl/afl-knowledge-010812/

This isn't what I am saying is it? My 'equally important' team will be balanced and hardly have all outside players as you intimate here.

My point about Magner is similar to your (earlier) point about Bowden. A good player will be able to do both.

A contested posession that is turned over is as useless as a contested posession that is turned over. An efficient CP however will always be of more value than an efficient UP.

Contested means that you have defeated an opponent to the footy. The opponent is with you and that opponent is accountable.

Uncontested means that your opponent is not with you. Whilst your opponent is not with you he is able to affect a contest in another part of the ground reducing your ability to attack.

= CP > UP

I rode past this point as I have great trouble with this defensive mindset with regard to players spread and run - which is essentially what most UPs will spring from. To run off your man and be bold and trust your teammates to get you the footy is what you want to see, and do see, in good teams. I am not about to mark down the success because they did leave their opponent.

You are deliberately ignoring arguments and information. And using poor disposers like McKenzie and Magner in order to try and prove a backward hypothesis.

So I am frustrated and disappointed. I thought that you would be more objective.

Evidence and logic are the basis of my argument.

There is not an educated person in the football world who would not agree that an efficient contested possession is of more value than an efficient uncontested posession.

Backward hypothesis? I was just following your Bowden mention with my own interpolation.

Objective? I am not an Uncontested Possession...

Evidence and logic is what we all see in our own arguments.

I don't know what to tell you - their importance or 'value' relies on each other. Just because one comes before the other doesn't inherently make it more important.

Ignoring the issues and not answering the question.

You can't hold a discussion like that.

I'm done. I won't engage you further.

How did I go this time?

[monoccular 17,427]

The simplest bit of this argument is to say all plays start with contested possession when the ball is thrown up and all finals are played with intense pressure and contests. Therefore it all starts with contested possession.

That post looks the epitome of an uncontested possession.. Does it count in your post count?

[obbafan 128]

An efficient contested possession leads to an uncontested possession. To win games of footy you are going to have to have efficient uncontested possessions most of the time.

I have my view - to win games of footy you have to do both well.

Having some existential question of whether one is more important than the other at an atomic level is not interesting. We have to do both well to win games.

With you. Tried to make this point some time back. You can win the contested ball as much as you like but if you have no one to kick it to it just comes back again. This is what we have had to endure. Backmen kicking back and fiddling around until, inevitably someone makes a mistake and our opponents have a shot on goal inside 50. Again and again and again!!!!!!!!

[deanox 9,914]

From my understanding, I think a lot of people are confused about what is actually recorded for each stat. If the below is incorrect I'd love to know the true definitions.

CONTESTED- Either the ball is in dispute (ie bouncing lose around that backline or wing with no one in possession) and a player goes and gets it OR the ball is won under direct physical pressure ie contested marks.

UNCONTESTED- The player gets possession from an uncontested mark from either an opposition or teammates kick, or gets a handball receive etc when not under direct physical pressure. (Ie chain of handballs)

Vs

HARD BALL GET- winning a contested possession under direct physical pressure

LOOSE BALL GET- picking up a free bouncing ball which no one is in possession while not under physical pressure.

Note that big hard ball and loose ball gets are CPs.

Note 2 I can't find an official source for this, but this article from the age backs it up: http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/its-easier-than-ever-to-get-a-contested-possession--stats-a-fact-20110608-1ft72.html

Edited December 1, 2013 by deanox

[deanox 9,914]

A contested posession that is turned over is as useless as a contested posession that is turned over. An efficient CP however will always be of more value than an efficient UP.

Contested means that you have defeated an opponent to the footy. The opponent is with you and that opponent is accountable.

Uncontested means that your opponent is not with you. Whilst your opponent is not with you he is able to affect a contest in another part of the ground reducing your ability to attack.

= CP > UP

I'm not convinced this definition is correct, even though it makes sense. Read my post above.

[rpfc 28,407]

Bump.

I just remembered this thread from a few months back, and I thought I would bring it back after our 331 Uncontested Possessions on Friday.

It's an interesting discussion, and I don't mean to pick on jabberwocky here at all.

Friday was just a good illustration of how Uncontested Possessions can allow a team to control another.

I am also inspired to do my measurement threads of some key statistics so that we can gauge the improvement of the team (now that I am convinced we will markedly improve).

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Bump.

I just remembered this thread from a few months back, and I thought I would bring it back after our 331 Uncontested Possessions on Friday.

It's an interesting discussion, and I don't mean to pick on jabberwocky here at all.

Friday was just a good illustration of how Uncontested Possessions can allow a team to control another.

I am also inspired to do my measurement threads of some key statistics so that we can gauge the improvement of the team (now that I am convinced we will markedly improve).

Without reinventing the wheel, uncontested possession is absolutely crucial to winning games of footy.

Hopefully we have begun to address our inability to work our way through inside sticky inside situations and also hold on to the footy in space.

i was amazed to see some of the handball chains that we thought our way through against the tiges, as well as our ability to provide options out wide.

I have said it before, it is amazing how much better skills look when there are viable targets to hit. People will laud our greater skill level when I feel it was mostly due to our ability to create space, run hard and do so with confidence that improved our efficiency. This can be improved more easily and quickly than skills.

NB: A real contested possession is of greater worth than an uncontested possession and this will be for time eternal.

Edited February 18, 2014 by jabberwocky

[rpfc 28,407]

As per your note - it's like love and marriage.

You can't have one without the other.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

As per your note - it's like love and marriage.

You can't have one without the other.

Geez.. I had a grumpy day didn't I.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Ignoring the issues and not answering the question.

You can't hold a discussion like that.

I'm done. I won't engage you further.

Time for your medication.

[rpfc 28,407]

Time for your medication.

That was last year.

[Harrisonrules 273]

Our game on Friday night was possession football. If that's the modern game we have finally come on board. It means the game is about turn overs. When you have it kicks and handballs must be spot on. Hence the you pas type play rises in importance. Get it to him more than to Nicholson. When opposition have it players like grimes, tear lick, georgiou are gems for they compete so well. Strauss would be better on a wing as someone to receive and deliver deep into the forward line. I don't find him competitive enough for back line.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

As per your note - it's like love and marriage.

You can't have one without the other.

Beware of absolutes. It would be possible to have one without the other. The perfect game of golf would be to score 18. Unlikely I'll admit. The perfect game of football would be to take the ball at the initial centre bounce and not give it up for the quarter. More likely than the golf scenario but still unlikely.

[Akum 2,660]

...

I have said it before, it is amazing how much better skills look when there are viable targets to hit. People will laud our greater skill level when I feel it was mostly due to our ability to create space, run hard and do so with confidence that improved our efficiency. This can be improved more easily and quickly than skills.

NB: A real contested possession is of greater worth than an uncontested possession and this will be for time eternal.

This is the absolute crux of the matter. Everything else -including skills - builds from here.