On 05/09/2013 at 03:40, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

You there Dee-luded?

Do you live in Tecoma?

I've just opened the general thread to see plenty of responses here.

No, I don't live in Tecoma.. & I do go to macca's from time to time. I too prefer H'Jack's

# my interest is in people standing up for themselves, & not lying down & being pushed around by the forces of power, overriding their desires for their lives, & communities.

I believe in good community values, & communities working together.

... but this is eroded often by todays affluence driven behaviours..... of competing with our neighbors rather than working as a team for one another. really only the last 45 years as I know it.

So when I hear of, or see things like this happening, especially in a little place like Tecoma which has this beautiful Country Town feel about it, with niche stores etc, my wish is to try to maintain that individuality, of the town...

I've been to Tecoma, & thru Tecoma many times, enjoying those hills & climate up there.

I don't want to see the same things happen everywhere we get a popular little township,, where people love the style & graces, then it becomes popular & multi-nationals then want to move on in to exploit the populous,,,, changing the place irretrievably.

Ackland street was a magnificent little strip, with plenty of creative arts going on until the money hungry moved in to make their kill. many artists moved out to Brunswick & Fitzroy unable to afford the elevated rents, & the strip is way lesser for it.

* So when I signed the protest petition, I then received this email weeks later... I watched & thought it was fantastic,,, & reminds me of how a better community can be like.

I thought I would share it on 'Land' for people to witness, as I believe this will go around the world.

I haven't read the other posts, except the ones ahead of this. so I don't yet know the general feeling of the following.

  On 04/09/2013 at 17:47, TheBigFrog said:

... if the vast majority of the local residents really support this business they simple will not use it, therefore the MacDonald;s store would be forced to close.

Tecoma is a gateway town to the Dandenongs, and principally local retailers make a living from tourists visiting the area, so I don't think your argument on this point is particularly well informed. A parallel point of view may be the fight to keep McDonalds out of Margaret River.

  On 05/09/2013 at 06:09, TheBigFrog said:

Council should have assessed the application on its merits and not made a bias unlawful decision. Councils are there to give good governance to all of the their community which would include the Land owner who wanted to develop his or her property.

If Council decision was over turned on appeal then clearly they legally made the wrong decision.

Also, your faith in those involved in 'council' and 'governance' to always act in the best interests of their constituents is inspirational.

I myself am far more cynical.

  On 05/09/2013 at 09:47, LegsLeoncelli said:

Tecoma is a gateway town to the Dandenongs, and principally local retailers make a living from tourists visiting the area, so I don't think your argument on this point is particularly well informed. A parallel point of view may be the fight to keep McDonalds out of Margaret River.

Now you are talking about a area I do know about, Margaret River and I have family living there.

I personally would not have an issue with a store like MacDonald's setting up there, why would I? if the Shire of Augusta/Margaret River have a town planning scheme that allows a business like MacDonald's to open a store what business is it of mine to complain as I don't even live there. However if the town planning scheme does not allow for the business to operate and a scheme amendment is required, then that is a different story and people would have every right to object.

Margaret River is so commercial now what difference wold a MacDonald's make? Personally I prefer to go to Augusta as it is a much nicer Town.

As I started before I have no particular liking to MacDonald's and can completely understand peoples dislike for the company. But IMO that not the issue.

  On 05/09/2013 at 09:55, LegsLeoncelli said:

Also, your faith in those involved in 'council' and 'governance' to always act in the best interests of their constituents is inspirational.

I myself am far more cynical.

I total understand your feeling in the matter.

But good governance is more the looking after the interest of electors, rate payers and residents.

If Council bases its decision on emotions and political pressure of small but vocal pressure groups only poor decision will be made.

  On 04/09/2013 at 11:16, dee-luded said:

its not about the people who don't live in Tecoma, its about the people who Do.

& the wishes of that community. thats what is important. the right, for communities to choose.

  On 05/09/2013 at 08:55, dee-luded said:

.

No, I don't live in Tecoma..

* So when I signed the protest petition, I then received this email weeks later... I watched & thought it was fantastic,,, & reminds me of how a better community can be like.

  On 05/09/2013 at 05:44, TheBigFrog said:

..........

Do you have a basis for your comment about having undesirable being attracted to the area or is it just a concern?

..............

firstly it is not my opinion. it was a comment expressed a number of times on tv by locals when discussing their concerns

make of it what you will

  On 07/09/2013 at 00:48, daisycutter said:

firstly it is not my opinion. it was a comment expressed a number of times on tv by locals when discussing their concerns

make of it what you will

Oh to me the comment in most cases is just what people say to justify a position and create unnecessary fear.

As it a restaurant not a night club but some people will never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

  On 04/09/2013 at 11:44, the master said:

do we actually know that? Or is it some don't and a bunch of hippies and anti capitalism folks have joined in.

And why haven't they recruited Rory Sloane as their public face!

I understand that you are pretty close to the mark. Source - a mate who works out of Tecoma. Spends a few days a week in the town

On Rory Sloane I have no clue.

  On 05/09/2013 at 02:56, daisycutter said:

one of the objections i believe is that it would be a 24 hour operation and thus maybe attract undesirables in the dead of the night

if so, then why not just agitate for a locally approved set of opening times to apply to all traders

these people do not want maccas in Tecoma, taking money/business away from privately owned 'small' businesses, like cafe`s, & other mum & dad type businesses.

not too mention the boutique trade like the tea houses & the like... its a niche market area for a reason.. because its an escape from the sameness of the suburban multinational driven 'Blah'.

some of the message of the people, (between 2.00 - 4.00 Mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eREijZHpQ0&feature=player_embedded

allowing Multi nationals like Macca's, & these sorts, erodes the original individual nature of the town. when these bigger company's are in the door, its the start of the end of the attractiveness & character of the town.

many things are way more important than money.

  On 05/09/2013 at 14:24, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

  On 04/09/2013 at 11:16, dee-luded said:

its not about the people who don't live in Tecoma, its about the people who Do.

& the wishes of that community. thats what is important. the right, for communities to choose.

.

No, I don't live in Tecoma..

* So when I signed the protest petition, I then received this email weeks later... I watched & thought it was fantastic,,, & reminds me of how a better community can be like.

Love your work Tecoma.

I remember seeing a MacDonald's store within 100 mitres of the Sphinx in Egypt and I think they have them in USA Warships as well.

They are going everywhere.

LOL

  On 05/09/2013 at 11:30, TheBigFrog said:

I total understand your feeling in the matter.

But good governance is more the looking after the interest of electors, rate payers and residents.

If Council bases its decision on emotions and political pressure of small but vocal pressure groups only poor decision will be made.

who then gets to decide what is 'poor' decisions... those who frequent the councils & business community, money oriented people, or the more meek & often timid towns people.

...... do we really have a true democracy, if its dominated by the more aggressive in the community, being overburdening & condescending of the quieter residents? the squeaky wheels of the community.

& so, if the timid won't run for council, & the business types will, to feather their own interests, are all the residents wishes being truly done? or is the bias towards the money end of decisions, rather than the heartfelt desired ones.

this is where modern democracy has been taken to.

IMO the rule of the mob is a dangerous thing. Just look what happened in Athens when decisions were based on popular vote.

It appears to me that democracy has indeed worked here. As the people elected officials to determine what type of development is allowed in the area by setting a Town Planning Scheme. If this was not the case then the local SAT would not have over turned the Local Councils decision not to allow the development.

I am sure the Council know that their decision would be over turned on appeal but wanted to be seen supporting the Mob who would have been at the meeting. IMO the Councillors should personally pay the Developers appeal costs.

Just because the Mob hate the thought of having a MacDonald's store in the area which by the way will be owned and operated by a local business person (another local) is no reason the business should not be allowed to operate.

Breaking Business

Australians bring their beef about McDonald's to Chicago

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain.

By Robert Channick Tribune reporter 7:23 a.m. CDT, September 13, 2013

Garry Muratore has come to Chicago from the land down under with one goal in mind: stopping McDonald's from building a restaurant in his small Australian hometown.

And while Tecoma, a suburb of Melbourne bordering a national park, has only about 2,000 residents, Muratore has lots of support. He and three fellow villagers have brought a petition with nearly 100,000 signatures to present to the Oak Brook-based chain next week, asking McDonald's to locate its planned 24/7 drive-thru restaurant elsewhere.

"They can run a business if it's in the correct location," said Muratore, 54, a software consultant and longtime Tecoma resident. "And this is not the correct location."

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain. An application filed in 2011 to build the McDonald's — near mountains, forests and protected parkland in the Dandenong Ranges — stirred protests from the start.

"It's a little bit like putting a McDonald's right near Mount Rushmore," Muratore said. "That's what we think about the Dandenong Ranges; it's such a pristine forest, and they don't need to be there."

Some 1,170 people filed written objections, and about 650 attended a 2011 city council vote, which was unanimously against the restaurant. McDonald's appealed to a regional body and prevailed on the basis of being "appropriately zoned," according to McDonald's Australia spokesman Ron Christianson.

Unable to deter McDonald's Australia or local franchisee James Currie, who owns two nearby restaurants, the protesters raised money to send the contingent to Chicago, where they will try to present their petition to McDonald's CEO Don Thompson on Wednesday.

The protesters took out an ad in the Chicago Tribune, and on Monday they are planning to inflate 50 kangaroos near the Hard Rock Cafe on West Ontario Street.

Christianson said such vehement opposition to a McDonald's is "extremely rare" and noted that the Tecoma location would bring 100 jobs to the community. Muratore said the vast majority of his village isn't buying it.

"It's a David and Goliath story," Muratore said. "Most of Australia is rooting for us."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-mcdonalds-prostest-20130912,0,6725094.story

.

  On 18/09/2013 at 03:11, dee-luded said:

Breaking Business

Australians bring their beef about McDonald's to Chicago

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain.

By Robert Channick Tribune reporter 7:23 a.m. CDT, September 13, 2013

Garry Muratore has come to Chicago from the land down under with one goal in mind: stopping McDonald's from building a restaurant in his small Australian hometown.

And while Tecoma, a suburb of Melbourne bordering a national park, has only about 2,000 residents, Muratore has lots of support. He and three fellow villagers have brought a petition with nearly 100,000 signatures to present to the Oak Brook-based chain next week, asking McDonald's to locate its planned 24/7 drive-thru restaurant elsewhere.

"They can run a business if it's in the correct location," said Muratore, 54, a software consultant and longtime Tecoma resident. "And this is not the correct location."

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain. An application filed in 2011 to build the McDonald's — near mountains, forests and protected parkland in the Dandenong Ranges — stirred protests from the start.

"It's a little bit like putting a McDonald's right near Mount Rushmore," Muratore said. "That's what we think about the Dandenong Ranges; it's such a pristine forest, and they don't need to be there."

Some 1,170 people filed written objections, and about 650 attended a 2011 city council vote, which was unanimously against the restaurant. McDonald's appealed to a regional body and prevailed on the basis of being "appropriately zoned," according to McDonald's Australia spokesman Ron Christianson.

Unable to deter McDonald's Australia or local franchisee James Currie, who owns two nearby restaurants, the protesters raised money to send the contingent to Chicago, where they will try to present their petition to McDonald's CEO Don Thompson on Wednesday.

The protesters took out an ad in the Chicago Tribune, and on Monday they are planning to inflate 50 kangaroos near the Hard Rock Cafe on West Ontario Street.

Christianson said such vehement opposition to a McDonald's is "extremely rare" and noted that the Tecoma location would bring 100 jobs to the community. Muratore said the vast majority of his village isn't buying it.

"It's a David and Goliath story," Muratore said. "Most of Australia is rooting for us."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-mcdonalds-prostest-20130912,0,6725094.story

.

Thanks for that it was a good article to read.

At lunch now but will make my comments when I get back home after work.

  On 18/09/2013 at 03:11, dee-luded said:

Breaking Business

Australians bring their beef about McDonald's to Chicago

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain.

By Robert Channick Tribune reporter 7:23 a.m. CDT, September 13, 2013

Garry Muratore has come to Chicago from the land down under with one goal in mind: stopping McDonald's from building a restaurant in his small Australian hometown.

And while Tecoma, a suburb of Melbourne bordering a national park, has only about 2,000 residents, Muratore has lots of support. He and three fellow villagers have brought a petition with nearly 100,000 signatures to present to the Oak Brook-based chain next week, asking McDonald's to locate its planned 24/7 drive-thru restaurant elsewhere. Now that funny as there only 2,000 locals but 100,000 signatures this only proves people will sign anything!

"They can run a business if it's in the correct location," said Muratore, 54, a software consultant and longtime Tecoma resident. "And this is not the correct location."

So a software consultant is an expect on restaurant locations, really?

Their arrival is the culmination of a two-year battle pitting grass-roots opposition against the giant hamburger chain. An application filed in 2011 to build the McDonald's — near mountains, forests and protected parkland in the Dandenong Ranges — stirred protests from the start. Think I has similar feelings when I saw a MacDonald's store with 100 m of the Sphinx in Egypt.

"It's a little bit like putting a McDonald's right near Mount Rushmore," Muratore said. "That's what we think about the Dandenong Ranges; it's such a pristine forest, and they don't need to be there." Did I not read they already had shops etc in the Town?

Some 1,170 people filed written objections, and about 650 attended a 2011 city council vote, which was unanimously against the restaurant. You can make all the objects you want but they must relate to valid Planning Issues clearly that was not the case but it would be worth reading the Council report to see what was recommended to Council. I would not know that many Councils having 650 lobbyists at their meeting would have voted for the development but they would have know that their decision would be over turned on appeal. As their decision was clearly illegal. McDonald's appealed to a regional body and prevailed on the basis of being "appropriately zoned," according to McDonald's Australia spokesman Ron Christianson. Surely this is not true as it appears to me the Franchise owner or Developer would only have the right of appeal? So legally the Development is allowed and consistent with the Town Planning Scheme.

Unable to deter McDonald's Australia or local franchisee James Currie, who owns two nearby restaurants, the protesters raised money to send the contingent to Chicago, where they will try to present their petition to McDonald's CEO Don Thompson on Wednesday. Does this mean the Protectors were unable to harass the local owner of the business enough so he goes away and does not open his legal and approved business?

The protesters took out an ad in the Chicago Tribune, and on Monday they are planning to inflate 50 kangaroos near the Hard Rock Cafe on West Ontario Street.

Christianson said such vehement opposition to a McDonald's is "extremely rare" and noted that the Tecoma location would bring 100 jobs to the community. Muratore said the vast majority of his village isn't buying it.

"It's a David and Goliath story," Muratore said. "Most of Australia is rooting for us." HTF would they know that most Australians are or are not rooting for them. IMO most would not care as it not in they back yard but this is only my opinion and not based in facts as I have not polled every Australian.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-mcdonalds-prostest-20130912,0,6725094.story

.

See above for my comments.

Personally I don't care either way if the MacDonald's store is open or not.

Its easy to bag a company like MacDonald's but I not sure if people truly understand the implications if development can be stopped in this way.

Although there no problem asking the company to move the development somewhere else.

Has anyone offered to buy the business/land at its market value or do they just expect him to just go away?

Do you know which Council this place belongs to as it would be interesting to read the Council Report on the development?

  On 18/09/2013 at 10:56, TheBigFrog said:

See above for my comments.

Personally I don't care either way if the MacDonald's store is open or not.

Its easy to bag a company like MacDonald's but I not sure if people truly understand the implications if development can be stopped in this way.

Although there no problem asking the company to move the development somewhere else.

Has anyone offered to buy the business/land at its market value or do they just expect him to just go away?

Do you know which Council this place belongs to as it would be interesting to read the Council Report on the development?

I'm not sure of the implications of not allowing the people of a community, to shape that community as they Desire it? Oh wait Old China... maybe Russia, or maybe Syria?

lets all bow to the great cannibal, Mr Capitalist....

IMO, what we all need is capitalist... the old system, prior to the saturation of credit, was where the capitalist system was fairer for the average person... maybe not so, for many of the middle ground, who all want High Status.

  On 18/09/2013 at 10:56, TheBigFrog said:

Its easy to bag a company like MacDonald's but I not sure if people truly understand the implications if development can be stopped in this way.

Its Easy these days for a Mulch-National company like McDonald's, to walk all over the constituents of a community, who object to its placement within their Village.

money goes a long way in V-Cat, with legal eagles etc. especially when the government is onside with the philosophies of business ahead of the dumb residents who wouldn't know whats good for them, right ?

oh wait on, macca's are said to be not good for you.. can that be right?

Love your passion on this topic but in this case I can not agree with you.

Unless I see some information that would change my mind I am going to support the little guy here.

The statements that implied that a big multinational company is picking on a small rural town is clearly wrong.

MacDonald's is not going to build or operate any store in this Town. The Franchise owner is taking all the risk and funding all the development.

That the beauty to companies like MacDonald's with allowing franchises, they expand their business without taking any business risks or providing any capital.

I am not sure of your understanding of local government or town planning schemes?

But the community would have had an opportunity to comment of the town planning scheme and zoning that allowed the store to get approval by the State. If the community was so against this type of development why did they not object during this process?

Also the community did have an opportunity to comment /object to the development, if I remember correctly 1,600 submissions had been received.

Usually in this process only objection that cover actual planning issues would be considered by the local government/Council.

It will be a sad day indeed when planning decision are based on the actual business/company and not the type business and actual activity to be undertaken. IMO blind Freddy could see what would happen to any development and how corrupt the system would become.

IMO it crazy to say that development of this type is Okay but we don't want a MacDonald's store there.

So I would ask you to stop supporting the radical mob and come support the small business man who wants make a dollar on land he is legally entitled develop and give job opportunities to this community.

  On 19/09/2013 at 03:25, dee-luded said:

I'm not sure of the implications of not allowing the people of a community, to shape that community as they Desire it? Oh wait Old China... maybe Russia, or maybe Syria?

lets all bow to the great cannibal, Mr Capitalist....

IMO, what we all need is capitalist... the old system, prior to the saturation of credit, was where the capitalist system was fairer for the average person... maybe not so, for many of the middle ground, who all want High Status.

Its Easy these days for a Mulch-National company like McDonald's, to walk all over the constituents of a community, who object to its placement within their Village.

money goes a long way in V-Cat, with legal eagles etc. especially when the government is onside with the philosophies of business ahead of the dumb residents who wouldn't know whats good for them, right ?

oh wait on, macca's are said to be not good for you.. can that be right?

Been to China and Syria.

Loved both places but would not want to live there.

  On 19/09/2013 at 12:33, TheBigFrog said:

Been to China and Syria.

Loved both places but would not want to live there.

thats my point, its should be a collective peoples choice first, over having situations foisted upon them thru governmental agencies, like VCat. overriding communities concerns.

its the same as a dictatorship or a communism where the people don't get their choice. people from other jurisdictions making their minds up for them.

kennett tried to give away council & community powers to the state government agencies, for this situation. (not listening)

  On 19/09/2013 at 12:25, TheBigFrog said:

Love your passion on this topic but in this case I can not agree with you.

Unless I see some information that would change my mind I am going to support the little guy here.

The statements that implied that a big multinational company is picking on a small rural town is clearly wrong.

MacDonald's is not going to build or operate any store in this Town. The Franchise owner is taking all the risk and funding all the development.

That the beauty to companies like MacDonald's with allowing franchises, they expand their business without taking any business risks or providing any capital.

I am not sure of your understanding of local government or town planning schemes?

But the community would have had an opportunity to comment of the town planning scheme and zoning that allowed the store to get approval by the State. If the community was so against this type of development why did they not object during this process?

Also the community did have an opportunity to comment /object to the development, if I remember correctly 1,600 submissions had been received.

Usually in this process only objection that cover actual planning issues would be considered by the local government/Council.

It will be a sad day indeed when planning decision are based on the actual business/company and not the type business and actual activity to be undertaken. IMO blind Freddy could see what would happen to any development and how corrupt the system would become.

IMO it crazy to say that development of this type is Okay but we don't want a MacDonald's store there.

So I would ask you to stop supporting the radical mob and come support the small business man who wants make a dollar on land he is legally entitled develop and give job opportunities to this community.

'this little guy' has I believe 2 existing maccas stores already, & I think this would be his 3rd ?

..... should the mum & dad business people have compensation from him & the Council or State Government, for loss of income & destruction of their family businesses. do you think this little guy cares about them?

I'm not interested in the TPschemes as they are put in place by people who have a bias to business, ahead of communal interests. that businessman may be from another city or country & not give a damn about the local people.

laws are only good if they represent the peoples wishes. for the common good. In this case its not greater Melbourne, but a Village on the fringe. the people want their towns character to remain, & this should weigh far more heavily than one mans desire to further expand his collection of maccas stores.

do you think people should have the right to sue maccas for litter in the nearby Bush?

  On 19/09/2013 at 23:27, dee-luded said:

thats my point, its should be a collective peoples choice first, over having situations foisted upon them thru governmental agencies, like VCat. overriding communities concerns.

its the same as a dictatorship or a communism where the people don't get their choice. people from other jurisdictions making their minds up for them.

kennett tried to give away council & community powers to the state government agencies, for this situation. (not listening)

I am assuming VCAT is like WA's State Administrative Tribunal (SAT)

This is an important process for when the Local Government's Council makes an error as clearly in this case it did.

My initial thoughts on this Council is how gutless they are but really if they had 650 protestors at the Council meeting them they likely had concerns for their own safety, which is totally understandable.

The Council would have been well aware that their decision would be over turned on appeal because they had not legal grounds to reject the development application.

I suspect that certain members wanted the VCAT to make this decision so they counld not be held responsible for approving the development. I have see this happen a number of times at Council meetings with elected members actually saying that what they want.

Council members are politicians after all.

I will address there rest of your statements in my next post as that would be more appropriate,

  On 19/09/2013 at 23:39, dee-luded said:

'this little guy' has I believe 2 existing maccas stores already, & I think this would be his 3rd ? Yes as 3 businesses still means he is a small businessman

..... should the mum & dad business people have compensation from him & the Council or State Government, for loss of income & destruction of their family businesses. do you think this little guy cares about them?

NO! As it is not governments role to restrict buinesses from starting up or reduce competition.

Government is not an Inurance company and generally most business are subject to competition for other businesses.

I think the developer is not a fly by night person, who is after a quick dollar from this community. He clearly has other businesses in he town whic is a benefit to the community.

I'm not interested in the TPschemes as they are put in place by people who have a bias to business, ahead of communal interests. that businessman may be from another city or country & not give a damn about the local people.

You may well not be interested in Town Planning Scheme but it my beat that the Protect would now be very interested.

I am not sure you are aware but this type of document protects you from having large trucks be parked next to your house, a mechanic workshop being opened up next door etc. All of this protects to value of your property. It is a very important document and one you should be interested in and aware of. If you do plan to sell your house and buy a new one, it would be very much worth your time to check out the local Town Planning Scheme otherwise a 24 hour MacDonalds Store could open up next door.

Business pleaple do take an interst in the development of Town Planning Scheme but so do other interest groups. It would be wrong to suggest that one group dominates the process as these Schemes generally are reviewed and will be endoresemt of the State.

laws are only good if they represent the peoples wishes. for the common good. In this case its not greater Melbourne, but a Village on the fringe. the people want their towns character to remain, & this should weigh far more heavily than one mans desire to further expand his collection of maccas stores.

There is community consultationin the development and amendment of Town Planning Scheme. This is where if the local community did not want deveopment they should heve lobbied their Council not to zone the area accordingly. If the communily did not bother to give input in this process or was actually happy with the plan / zoning but just hate MacDonald's, well all I can say is you can not have your cake and eat it as well.

If the people wanted the character to remain then this is done by the development of an appropriate zoning and scheme provisions.

The Developer owned land that legally could be developed into a 24 hour resturant, the zoning allows it. It would appear to me at the time the community did not object to this zoning. So provided certain conditions are meet why should he not development that land in accordance to that zoning?

Are you suggesting that all developments should be voted on by the local community?

If that a system you are seriously suggesting I can see so many negative issues which will have a massive impact on the whole country and economy that its not worth thinking about.

But what I will say his the land owner also has rights to use is property provided its an allowable use.

do you think people should have the right to sue maccas for litter in the nearby Bush?

No as I don't agree with shifting responsibility to others, people are responsible for their own actions. Therefore the person or persons making the mess should always be held responsible.

See my responses above.