If the Club can manage to turn around its on-field performances by 10 goals per game at season end a percentage of 60 or so shall result.

That's being a 10-goal average-differential better team for the rest of the year. I for one won't be holding my breath.

Sixty per cent is where GWS are now, statistically-speaking.

Surely we just need to win 5 games to improve on last year.

Unleash Hell

You are upset however you want facts, pure facts about the current Melbourne Coach Mark Neeld which you or nobody can dispute.

Mark Neeld was the coach when we lost against Essendon at the MCG our home ground for 150 years by the biggest ever margin.

Is our team talent wise the worst in 150 years no way.

The teams Robert Flower played in were extremely ordinary throughout much of his career

Sack Neeld ASAP

Not upset mate - am passionate though

I fully expect Neeld to get sacked if we lose to GWS this weekend - I won't agree with it but I expect it to happen...

The preformance on field has been poor - no one disputes that at all. I am too young to remember Robbie Flower running around.

Neeld, Craig and Co were brought in to this club to change it's culture and initiate a more unified and professional club because we are so far behind the competition it's not funny- Not the old school old boy club the MFC curently is.

On field preformance is important but it dosen't only rest with the coach... what about the players responsibility?

If Neeld is sacked 18 months in to his re-build it will be an embaressment for the club and the final straw for this board.... How can you trust their judgement after sacking a bloke 18 months in to a project that realistically will take years??

Surely we just need to win 5 games to improve on last year.

I'm sorry but the improved performance I've suggested won't do it.

cool, as long as you stop pissing and moaning about the bagging if we get pumped

Pissing and moaning??????

That all I read on here.....Keyboard warriors ....shooting everyone in sight........

I'm as disappointed as anyone but we have to start and carry through with the plan otherwise we end up in the same mess three years down the track......and then shoot everyone else....and then start again.........But you go ahead and hope you have a good day....

I wonder how much of this is on the money. If it's been posted elsewhere my apologies.

http://www.sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/the-shadowdemons-coaching-dreamteam-230851

The Shadow told you last week that the Demons are ready to consider Todd Viney to replace Mark Neeld should the season should go south.

I'm sorry for those that think there is a process going that needs completion. There isn't anymore. We have appointed a dud coach who has decimated our list and confidence. Mark Neeld has created this mess and has to go. Schwab set it up and Neeld went on with the job in a horrific way.

Under Bailey we displayed talent and confidence, we had All Australians, X-factor players and young guns. We were moving up the ladder.


Those who think that the Mark Neeld trainwreck will happen again if we appoint a new coach are dead wrong. If we appoint another bad coach, sure. But with a good coach we will rise.

We were rising before Neeld came and we can rise again.

I'm sorry for those that think there is a process going that needs completion. There isn't anymore. We have appointed a dud coach who has decimated our list and confidence. Mark Neeld has created this mess and has to go. Schwab set it up and Neeld went on with the job in a horrific way.

Under Bailey we displayed talent and confidence, we had All Australians, X-factor players and young guns. We were moving up the ladder.

Those who think that the Mark Neeld trainwreck will happen again if we appoint a new coach are dead wrong. If we appoint another bad coach, sure. But with a good coach we will rise.

We were rising before Neeld came and we can rise again.

I will save this post and remind you of it at the end of the year.........Re under Bailey......What were our ladder positions at the end of each of his years as coach?????

I wonder how much of this is on the money. If it's been posted elsewhere my apologies.

http://www.sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/the-shadowdemons-coaching-dreamteam-230851

The Shadow told you last week that the Demons are ready to consider Todd Viney to replace Mark Neeld should the season should go south.

Todd Viney - there a coach with a superior coaching record. One win against Gold Coast. We are saved.

I'm sorry for those that think there is a process going that needs completion. There isn't anymore. We have appointed a dud coach who has decimated our list and confidence. Mark Neeld has created this mess and has to go. Schwab set it up and Neeld went on with the job in a horrific way.

Under Bailey we displayed talent and confidence, we had All Australians, X-factor players and young guns. We were moving up the ladder.

Those who think that the Mark Neeld trainwreck will happen again if we appoint a new coach are dead wrong. If we appoint another bad coach, sure. But with a good coach we will rise.

We were rising before Neeld came and we can rise again.

Don't think we were moving upwards - our fitness standards were a joke. I think in 2011 we were moving backwards not forwards.

I'm sorry for those that think there is a process going that needs completion. There isn't anymore. We have appointed a dud coach who has decimated our list and confidence. Mark Neeld has created this mess and has to go. Schwab set it up and Neeld went on with the job in a horrific way.

Under Bailey we displayed talent and confidence, we had All Australians, X-factor players and young guns. We were moving up the ladder.

Those who think that the Mark Neeld trainwreck will happen again if we appoint a new coach are dead wrong. If we appoint another bad coach, sure. But with a good coach we will rise.

We were rising before Neeld came and we can rise again.

You speak with passion and I appreciate that

But your opinions lack any acknowlegement of the other side of the argument -

And i guess 186 was just a road bump??

I don't mean to be rude - but do you watch footy? These blokes can't win a 1 v 1 contest - they can't win the ball.. 2013 footy is all about contested football. What makes you think we will be better off playing free flowing footy unaccountable footy if we can't even with the ball??

A coach instructs the players how to play - the players acutally go out there and play - the players need to be accountable too

Most of our players haven't chased all year.

He's had 3 games and one pre - season. He needs to build elite fitness.

The change is cultural and desire, rather than 'I've arrived and I don't need to listen....'

That doesn't excuse it though.

Pissing and moaning??????

That all I read on here.....Keyboard warriors ....shooting everyone in sight........

I'm as disappointed as anyone but we have to start and carry through with the plan otherwise we end up in the same mess three years down the track......and then shoot everyone else....and then start again.........But you go ahead and hope you have a good day....

mate I'm cool with you or anybody having an opinion. That's what a forum is for, but don't expect to have a winge about people having a winge and and expect nobody will winge about it. It's the circle of life. In the end they are just words on a screen. We are all hurting and we all deal with it in different ways. That doesn't make you wrong and me right or visa versa. If we all agreed it would be a boring read.

mate I'm cool with you or anybody having an opinion. That's what a forum is for, but don't expect to have a winge about people having a winge and and expect nobody will winge about it. It's the circle of life. In the end they are just words on a screen. We are all hurting and we all deal with it in different ways. That doesn't make you wrong and me right or visa versa. If we all agreed it would be a boring read.

The fact that anyone can find anything positive about the Bailey era is mind boggling.

Stuie, you should do more research before you type

Bommer Thomson coached geelong from 2000 -2010

2000 - finished 5th

2001 - 12th

2002 - 9th

2003 - 12th

2004 - 4th

2005 - 6th

etc...

Point is the most successful club of recent times had THREE years worse than their first before they rose to the premiership space. The Geelong FC stuck fat, yet the nervous nannies at the MFC would have us blinking after 3 games in the second season...

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that scapegoating can do more harm than actually alleviate the problems, there's no escaping we've been flogged three weeks in a row. As Stuie noted, Neeld had no answer when asked the question of why.

The Thompson example might have been relevant if we were anywhere near a mid-table team. We're so far off the pace, it's staggering. Geelong didn't win 5 games a year in any of those years. We'll be lucky to do that this year and struggled last year. It's simply not financially viable to maintain these floggings. Something has to give if this continues.

The fact that anyone can find anything positive about the Bailey era is mind boggling.

Im positive i was glad when he was sacked, does that count?

You speak with passion and I appreciate that

But your opinions lack any acknowlegement of the other side of the argument -

And i guess 186 was just a road bump??

I don't mean to be rude - but do you watch footy? These blokes can't win a 1 v 1 contest - they can't win the ball.. 2013 footy is all about contested football. What makes you think we will be better off playing free flowing footy unaccountable footy if we can't even with the ball??

A coach instructs the players how to play - the players acutally go out there and play - the players need to be accountable too

To address each of your points;

- Thanks we are all passionate here

- You don't outline the other side of the argument? Or is it that 'its the players fault' which you go on to say? TBH I dont think the players efforts are the root of the problem, but a symptom. Regardless, we can't sack the players and we can sack the coach. So let's sack the coach cos we have shown less than nothing under him.

- It is plain rude to throw a 'do you watch footy' comment out there.

- 186 was indeed a horrible setback but had a disgusting political backdrop and was against the best team in the history of AFL football.

- Of course the players have to be accountable but you can't drop 18 players. You hire a coach to get the most out of the players.

I'll put it back on you.

Do you think the coach is getting the most out of these current players?

Did he get the most out of the 'moved-on' players; Jordan Gysberts, Stefan Martin, Brent Moloney, Jared Rivers, Ricky Petterd?

In your world, how does a coach actually show that he is performing badly?

Seriously, using the performance of the club as a measure, in what way could we be doing worse? Waiting for a GWS game is patently uneccessary in my view.

Im positive i was glad when he was sacked, does that count?

fair point - that indeed was the only positive moment between the hawks thrasing us and the blur of failure.

To address each of your points;

- Thanks we are all passionate here

- You don't outline the other side of the argument? Or is it that 'its the players fault' which you go on to say? TBH I dont think the players efforts are the root of the problem, but a symptom. Regardless, we can't sack the players and we can sack the coach. So let's sack the coach cos we have shown less than nothing under him.

- It is plain rude to throw a 'do you watch footy' comment out there.

- 186 was indeed a horrible setback but had a disgusting political backdrop and was against the best team in the history of AFL football.

- Of course the players have to be accountable but you can't drop 18 players. You hire a coach to get the most out of the players.

I'll put it back on you.

Do you think the coach is getting the most out of these current players?

Did he get the most out of the 'moved-on' players; Jordan Gysberts, Stefan Martin, Brent Moloney, Jared Rivers, Ricky Petterd?

In your world, how does a coach actually show that he is performing badly?

Seriously, using the performance of the club as a measure, in what way could we be doing worse? Waiting for a GWS game is patently uneccessary in my view.

No problem I will answer your points in point form as well

1 ok cool

2 I CBF repeating myself - i've been pretty cliear in my posts on this thread that there are multiple issue with this club and simply sacking a coach 1/2 way through a rebuild is unprofessional by the club and un-realistic expectations

3. Apologies if you're offended - but it really makes me wonder if you watch any other team if you claim we'd be better off under bailey

4. Why is 186 so different to what's happening now? And you're the one claiming sacking Bailey was a bad thing

5. Hard to get the most out of players if you haven't got total commitment out of the 22 blokes on the park

On to your q's

6. No I don't - i think some of the players are unaccountable and lack any knowledge the commitment to get 100% out of themselves. I think for some it's gotten too hard and they've dropped their heads or simply have NFI. You mentioned earlier (i think) that you can't drop 18 players you need some experience to win games and I also think Neeld has made mistakes but they aren't fatal.

7. I think every player you've listed iin their own ways idenitfy problems with our club. They all either under-preformers at their time (AS an example -Moloney was good under Bailey but when asked to be accountable dropped his head) at the club and don't show or lack any real leadership

8. I am not sure how to answer that and that answer and it is why I am not so sure if Neeld should be sacked.... THankfully it is not my decision but I don't mind debating it

Nothing wrong with looking at the ladder and saying we are failing - but we've been down this path before - sacking coaches willy nilly

I am not 100% sure of Neelds performance as a Senior coach as I am not sure he has 100% commitment form every player on the list - which undermine his preformance..... Neelds been given 3 years to trun this ship around - IMO sacking him now is unprofessional from the club and it says to me Our club will never ever amount to anything ever as it can't see anything through - right or wrong

My question to you

How can you sit there from the outside and have zero doubt that Neeld, Craig and Co aren't on the right track - is preformance the only measure of success?? Can experience leadership and AFL fitness be acheived in 18 months?? Do winning culutres only take 18 months to develop??

Beacuse Neeld, Mission & Craig can't get immediate results does that mean their reocrds don't mean anything?

Considering the fact bailey had no money to spend, no misson on fitness, and a CEO meddling around he's freaking norm smith compared to Neeld.

Neeld is gone, no doubt about it.

No problem I will answer your points in point form as well

1 ok cool

2 I CBF repeating myself - i've been pretty cliear in my posts on this thread that there are multiple issue with this club and simply sacking a coach 1/2 way through a rebuild is unprofessional by the club and un-realistic expectations

3. Apologies if you're offended - but it really makes me wonder if you watch any other team if you claim we'd be better off under bailey

4. Why is 186 so different to what's happening now? And you're the one claiming sacking Bailey was a bad thing

5. Hard to get the most out of players if you haven't got total commitment out of the 22 blokes on the park

On to your q's

6. No I don't - i think some of the players are unaccountable and lack any knowledge the commitment to get 100% out of themselves. I think for some it's gotten too hard and they've dropped their heads or simply have NFI. You mentioned earlier (i think) that you can't drop 18 players you need some experience to win games and I also think Neeld has made mistakes but they aren't fatal.

7. I think every player you've listed iin their own ways idenitfy problems with our club. They all either under-preformers at their time (AS an example -Moloney was good under Bailey but when asked to be accountable dropped his head) at the club and don't show or lack any real leadership

8. I am not sure how to answer that and that answer and it is why I am not so sure if Neeld should be sacked.... THankfully it is not my decision but I don't mind debating it

Nothing wrong with looking at the ladder and saying we are failing - but we've been down this path before - sacking coaches willy nilly

I am not 100% sure of Neelds performance as a Senior coach as I am not sure he has 100% commitment form every player on the list - which undermine his preformance..... Neelds been given 3 years to trun this ship around - IMO sacking him now is unprofessional from the club and it says to me Our club will never ever amount to anything ever as it can't see anything through - right or wrong

My question to you

How can you sit there from the outside and have zero doubt that Neeld, Craig and Co aren't on the right track - is preformance the only measure of success?? Can experience leadership and AFL fitness be acheived in 18 months?? Do winning culutres only take 18 months to develop??

Beacuse Neeld, Mission & Craig can't get immediate results does that mean their reocrds don't mean anything?

Great reply 'leash! Def think this debate is worthwhile, especially considering how precarious it all is at the moment.

Now to your question;

I have strong conviction, not zero doubt. That strong conviction is not purely based on the disgusting on field performances. TBH I didn't like his start - sacking the leadership group and putting two kids in. Alienating the indigenous talent - remember the Misfud affair? Talking with a 'they' message early on. They were the first signs he was motivationally challenged. Also, his gameplan looked made for Collingwood, not our list, our players went backwards and have gone back ever since.

From 8.5 wins in 2011, to winless by mid year 2012, I developed serious doubts about his methods. But I thought maybe it was a learning curve and he could begin to make the most out of our list. Then there was the player walk outs and asking to be traded. Then there was the relentless scapegoating of the 'non AFL fitness' levels of the past regime. This is very disrespectful to a fellow respected professional in Bailey, who, like Neeld had been involved in premierships at Port and Essendon. Then there was the 'dummyball' tactic of bringing in VFL standard players from other clubs. Then there was a fantastical and unbelievable comment that 'we had a good preseason'.

After round 1 he didn't know why it went so wrong on field. He doesn't seem to know why the club has gone backwards under him. To me it is clear, he has been ineffective in his motivation of the current players, he has traded away talent or lost it and he has drafted in spuds.

New coach, new gameplan, new motivation = new hope. We may need to can our next coach too! But maybe not. What I can see though is that this one has to go.

Neil Craig had a limited successful period as coach with Adelaide and then a less successful period which resulted in him parting ways with Adelaide.

Mark Neeld was apparently ok as a midfield coach at the Pies, but he has already shown that he cannot handle the top job. Anyone who questions this should look at Macartney at the Dogs, Sanderson at the Crows and Hinkley at Port. All of them are dealing with problems they inherited, but they appear to have the players on side, without the massive clean-out that Neeld has instigated.

Only Neeld appears unable to get the players on side, so presumably Neeld is the problem and Craig isn't helping!

Also, this week's result will not change anything - Neeld and Craig have to go!

Neil Craig had a limited successful period as coach with Adelaide and then a less successful period which resulted in him parting ways with Adelaide.

Mark Neeld was apparently ok as a midfield coach at the Pies, but he has already shown that he cannot handle the top job. Anyone who questions this should look at Macartney at the Dogs, Sanderson at the Crows and Hinkley at Port. All of them are dealing with problems they inherited, but they appear to have the players on side, without the massive clean-out that Neeld has instigated.

Only Neeld appears unable to get the players on side, so presumably Neeld is the problem and Craig isn't helping!

Also, this week's result will not change anything - Neeld and Craig have to go!

Each footy club is so different that you can't simply say "Look at Club X. Such-and-such worked there so clearly we're doing it wrong." It's just not that simple.

Each footy club is so different that you can't simply say "Look at Club X. Such-and-such worked there so clearly we're doing it wrong." It's just not that simple.

I didn't suggest it was simple - my point was that a good coach works with what he has got and then improves it - he takes the club with him. Neeld has done the opposite!

I didn't suggest it was simple - my point was that a good coach works with what he has got and then improves it - he takes the club with him. Neeld has done the opposite!

Sure, but I'm saying that perhaps our situation is a little more complex than at other clubs. The tanking issue, the prolonged poor performance, the amateur boys club environment and a whole host of other issues have been working against Mark Neeld. Surely they have made his job a lot tougher, and may go a long way to explaining our worse performance this year.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that scapegoating can do more harm than actually alleviate the problems, there's no escaping we've been flogged three weeks in a row. As Stuie noted, Neeld had no answer when asked the question of why.

The Thompson example might have been relevant if we were anywhere near a mid-table team. We're so far off the pace, it's staggering. Geelong didn't win 5 games a year in any of those years. We'll be lucky to do this year and struggled last year. It's simply not financially viable to maintain these floggings. Something has to give if this continues.

As Donald once siad "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

Having a coach that recognises when he is clueless is not necessarily a hanging offence. It indicates honestly and humility in the face of a situation he is yet to master... and a likelihood that he'l see the answer eventually.