But surely the coaches deserve criticism too. They're either failing in communicating their message to the players or they're perpetuating the problem by leaving petulant players in the team.

Does Neeld want a hard team without having to make hard decisions? Are the players picking the team?

Both the players AND the coaches deserve criticism.

I have seen shots on here taken at the coaches and administrators. We can pick holes in what CS has or hasnt done since 186. We can damn Neelds boundary line game plan.

But every game plan calls for the same thing - go in hard - first second and third efforts, tackle, chase and harrass. Every gameplan calls for pride in the jumper, pride in the effort and whilst they say the buck stops with coach I reckon thats because you cant sack a whole team.

There maybe blame in lots of places but I place the majority of the blame on the players as they are the only who can actually get their hands on the football. If I saw effort like Stkilda and Bulldogs games , you wouldnt see this post as those games had effort. I cant say the same for the last two weeks

Edited May 22, 201213 yr by nutbean

The discussion here, and Ox's comments, isn't about what's working or what's not, or what game plan we're supposed to be playing or not. This isn't even about training load. It's simply about professional football players giving a 100% each time they run onto the field.

Which has nothing to do with the coaches.

Ironically enough, perhaps if the players gave it a decent crack, and at the very least tried to do what they're being told to do, we might then be able to get to understand where the coaches are at. Which would expose them to criticism if it wasn't working.

Fair enough if the discussion is just about the players, they obviously deserve scrutiny.

My point maybe better suited to another thread, but you can't absolve the coaches from the players onfield performances.

I have seen shots on here taken at the coaches and administrators. We can pick holes in what CS has or hasnt done since 186. We can damn Neelds boundary line game plan.

But every game plan calls for the same thing - go in hard - first second and third efforts, tackle, chase and harrass. Every gameplan calls for pride in the jumper, pride in the effort and whilst they say the buck stops with coach I reckon thats because you cant sack a whole team.

There maybe blame in lots of places but I place the majority of the blame on the players as they are the only who can actually get their hands on the football. If I saw effort like Stkilda and Bulldogs games , you wouldnt see this post as those games had effort. I cant say the same for the last two weeks

Yes you're right, the players are the only one's who can get their hands on the ball. But if we've got players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions then it is a reflection on the coach.

The coach holds one of the most important leadership roles in the team. If he's a hard coach that wants a hard team then he needs to make some hard decisions. If a player isn't putting in the effort, drop him. If they're not following instructions, drop him.

Neeld has to set a standard for the playing group and is just as responsible for the performances as the players are.

Edited May 22, 201213 yr by Jack Jack

Yes you're right, the players are the only one's who can get their hands on the ball. But if we've got players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions then it is a reflection on the coach.

The coach holds one of the most important leadership roles in the team. If he's a hard coach that wants a hard team then he needs to make some hard decisions. If a player isn't putting in the effort, drop him. If they're not following instructions, drop him.

Neeld has to set a standard for the playing group and is just as responsible for the performances as the players are.

I am not sure it is. I think Neeld's inherited this problem. It's time the players asked what they can do for the club, instead of what the club can do for them. The problems Neeld is dealing with aren't an 8-week fix.

If what we're seeing is the response by the senior players, then his decisions have been justified. Culture needs changing.

Yes you're right, the players are the only one's who can get their hands on the ball. But if we've got players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions then it is a reflection on the coach.

Sorry but I reject this - you are letting the players off the hook. That they dont get the game plan, too complicated, not skilled enough, unable to follow instructions because of lack of understanding - yup - a reflection on the coach.

Players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions by choice are a 100% reflection on the players themselves - no one else and these players need to be put under the spotlight.

Edit -I added the words by choice to "following instructions by choice" to differentiate between not putting in as the coach asked and not understanding the coaches instructions

Edited May 22, 201213 yr by nutbean

The reason I don't buy 100% into the "lynch the senior players" mob is because looking at a guy like Trengove I cannot fathom that he is struggling this year because he is unhappy with the appointment of the new coach or sulking because Neeld/Craig/Misson told them they are not fit enough or working hard enough. He is one of our worst performers this year and (barring injury which is not an excuse once you cross the white line) I can't see how it can be related to a perceived rift between the players and the FD/coach.

Sorry but I reject this - you are letting the players off the hook. That they dont get the game plan, too complicated, not skilled enough, unable to follow instructions because of lack of understanding - yup - a reflection on the coach.

Players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions by choice are a 100% reflection on the players themselves - no one else and these players need to be put under the spotlight.

Edit -I added the words by choice to "following instructions by choice" to differentiate between not putting in as the coach asked and not understanding the coaches instructions

Maybe it is both. The coach maybe needs to alter the way he is trying to get the message across and those players who are not willing to buy-in either because it is too hard or they have had too much leeway in the past, well they need to decide where they want to be 2013.

By putting yourself on the market that is tantamount to telling the Club that you dont really want to be there.

Others well maybe the game has passed them by and good servants they may have been some decisions will always be hard to make ie Cam Bruce

Edited May 22, 201213 yr by longsuffering

Ox said the best thing I have heard about Melbourne in recent days:

''At the moment, there are Melbourne players going out there being very happy to be playing for the club on their terms. At the moment, if Melbourne players want to go out there, be selfish and do it their way, well, they can go, they can leave the club,'' he said.

''The way it sits right now is that we have a new coach who has come into the system, is trying to reorganize and dismantle what was before him, put together a new game plan and, for that, the players have to fit into the way he wants to play.

''Whether you like the coach or not, or think the coach can coach or not, is irrelevant. It doesn't stop a player from having a dip.

YES YES F$&@'IN YES.

Talk to the team this week Ox. Look 'em in the eye.

I am not sure it is. I think Neeld's inherited this problem. It's time the players asked what they can do for the club, instead of what the club can do for them. The problems Neeld is dealing with aren't an 8-week fix.

If what we're seeing is the response by the senior players, then his decisions have been justified. Culture needs changing.

Sorry but I reject this - you are letting the players off the hook. That they dont get the game plan, too complicated, not skilled enough, unable to follow instructions because of lack of understanding - yup - a reflection on the coach.

Players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions by choice are a 100% reflection on the players themselves - no one else and these players need to be put under the spotlight.

Edit -I added the words by choice to "following instructions by choice" to differentiate between not putting in as the coach asked and not understanding the coaches instructions

Each to their own, we all see things differently. Maybe I'm being overly critical of Neeld because I haven't really seen any big statements from him at the selection table.

YES YES F$&@'IN YES.

Talk to the team this week Ox. Look 'em in the eye.

Thats what the coach should be doing... Too often we rely on outside emotional influences to get us up. Eg: Stynes, Lyon & others i cant think of.

Time to harden the truck up!!

This collective losing our [censored] which has gone on since Saturday is pretty embarrassing. I understand people's frustrations (be they with the coach, players, CEO etc) but can we at least give them a chance to prove themselves before wanting to raze the entire club to the ground?

To be fair, they've had 8 rounds to do so, and have proven sweet [censored] all.

To be fair, they've had 8 rounds to do so, and have proven sweet [censored] all.

Agreed.

Me too.

I'm posting this because there's no way this could be posted too often:

[media=]

This is the post you replied to:

I don't see that jumbo's post was necessarily about Schwarz's 'foibles', as you call them, since you could certainly argue that Schwarz had enough to overcome with his injuries and his Dad etc.

Even if Schwarz's 'foibles' were part of what jumbo was referring to I don't see that it was deriding Schwartz.

Bloody Fantasic Could watch it for ever

Where is our David Schwaz now where is his passion in the club His on fileld leadership

Thansk for the memories Should be shown over and over to the current list

Thats what the coach should be doing... Too often we rely on outside emotional influences to get us up. Eg: Stynes, Lyon & others i cant think of.

Time to harden the truck up!!

I agree. But its going to take a collective effort to get this old V8 started.

I would like to see any of our players challenge the word of the Ox.

That said i want Mark Neeld to coach this club long term. We must get stability.

The reason I don't buy 100% into the "lynch the senior players" mob is because looking at a guy like Trengove I cannot fathom that he is struggling this year because he is unhappy with the appointment of the new coach or sulking because Neeld/Craig/Misson told them they are not fit enough or working hard enough. He is one of our worst performers this year and (barring injury which is not an excuse once you cross the white line) I can't see how it can be related to a perceived rift between the players and the FD/coach.

I am not suggesting that every player gets lynched. I can hold my own thoughts on who is not putting in and who is but at the end of the season it will be the FD who will decide who isnt buying in and who is and take appropriate action.

Maybe it is both. The coach maybe needs to alter the way he is trying to get the message across and those players who are not willing to buy-in either because it is too hard or they have had too much leeway in the past, well they need to decide where they want to be 2013.

By putting yourself on the market that is tantamount to telling the Club that you dont really want to be there.

Others well maybe the game has passed them by and good servants they may have been some decisions will always be hard to make ie Cam Bruce

I Think Neil Craig said at the beginning of the season about the players (and I am paraphrasing from memory) " there is a new regime of fitness, training and discipline - it may not to be the liking of all the players - some will thrive and some won't"- now, not many have thrived but how far wrong is Craig? Not very.

Each to their own, we all see things differently. Maybe I'm being overly critical of Neeld because I haven't really seen any big statements from him at the selection table.

Was party to a process that saw 4 out of the 5 leadership group axed including the captain to occur.

B&F from a couple of years ago and the captain dumped from the team

Number one draft pick dumped.

These arent big enough statements for you ?

Was party to a process that saw 4 out of the 5 leadership group axed including the captain to occur.

B&F from a couple of years ago and the captain dumped from the team

Number one draft pick dumped.

These arent big enough statements for you ?

Yes, they're big statements. But I was mainly refering to the weekly team selection.

Ahem, a classic case of misinterpretation. I took Jumbo's post to mean Ox's battles on the field - knees and the like.

Thanks IVS, I was talking about his footballing career being terribly curtailed by injuries.

Perhaps my initial post was too ambiguous.

Like I said he has said nothing new and its just fodder. And I dont think its a choice between rehashed criticism of the Club and sack the coach threads.

I am glad you are so enamored with the comments of a person whose name you cant spell Nrom Simth. Oops now there I go.

I think you mean enamoured...