I can put up with the fact that our team were outplayed by a well drilled and smarter outfit in Hawthorn. Despite the Hawks missing a few of their senior players.

I can put up with dropped marks or mistakes made by some of our younger players that are finding their feet at AFL level (ie. 1st, 2nd year players).

But what I cannot stomach is this:

What really upset me was the MFC players - in most cases the senior MFC players - lack of onfield leadership on Saturday. Hawthorn players pushing and shoving them around, yet the Mfc players just took it with no offer of retaliation. Guys like Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Campbell Brown were aggressive at the player with the ball. When they tackled the Melbourne player, they tackled the player into submission and rubbed the players faces into the ground. When they dived into packs for the ball they went in with intent and purpose. To not only obtain the ball, but hurt the opposition player. Those very players set a precedence on Saturday for Hawthorn, they set the tone and the rest of the Hawks followed suit. Yet the Melbourne senior players took a back seat. Brad Green the exception.

When I see a Melbourne player being pushed around , I want to see them give it back , I want to see a Melbourne player hurt the opposition and I would love to see teammates coming into support. Not walk away or brush it off, or not remonstrate. It makes me sick. Push 'em back ! As long as it's legal it's fine. It gives a message to the opposition.

"Stick up for your club, your supporters. You're not weak. But you sure as hell show it that you are !"

The senior players should be leading the way. At the moment they're mentally weak.

TARGET TEN

Cameron Bruce. James McDonald. Brad Miller. Matthew Bate. Brent Moloney. Nathan Jones. Matthew Warnock. Mark Jamar. Aaron Davey. Jared Rivers.

These 10 players need to make a stand and lead the way for the younger 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players. After Round 1 it's exactly the opposite. I don't care if we see a couple of reports. Get tough, get aggressive, set the tone, by all means do it legally, but sure as hell make sure there are no backward steps and do your supporters proud. Doing this makes others walk taller and breeds CONFIDENCE

At least the members and supporters can go away from the game thinking, "gee, the players despite the loss actually gave something, they cared, they were aggressive, they were on the front foot, they showed the younger players how to be physical and what to do."

I'm not letting the coaching department get off lightly here either.

Communication. These senior players need to be told. Dean Bailey, you're the messenger. If you can't relay these thoughts to the senior players, something is wrong.

Some of these players have previously expressed their desire to earn back respect in the off season. Well, they've got to walk the talk now. It's no use coming out saying we're "gunna" do this "gunna" do that. At the moment their just "gunna's", not "doer's"

How important is on-field leadership ?

It's bloody essential.

I think some of the problem is that our kids don't yet have body to play a physical game.

Setting a tone like that will instantly expose glaring weaknesses.

Get some bigger harder bodies in the side and this may work.

I think some of the problem is that our kids don't yet have body to play a physical game.

Setting a tone like that will instantly expose glaring weaknesses.

Get some bigger harder bodies in the side and this may work.

You don't need bigger bodies to push someone back. Anyone can wrestle if need be. It keeps the opposition honest and tells them this side won't roll over without a fight.

For example, if I see someone pushing Strauss around. I expect Warnock, Frawley or Rivers to remonstrate and stick up for their teammate.

KS, HT was referring to the mature players within the group. "On field leadership" I think he said. To me this is a no brainer - no argument. HT is 100% correct.

Nothing short of pitiful.

A leadership group?

Cameron Bruce played on 'Chubbs' Peterson and also Michael Osborne at times and they found the ball like they had a magnet on... he put no pressure on, he turned the ball over and did not assist the youngsters ind efence. It was only when he was moved, that the backs looked half decent.

as for brad miller - physical presence of a midget... did not even look like taking a mark on the weekend, even when it was served up on a latter!! Thank goodnewshis wife is good at something... he must make contests, be more aggressive and act as though he is a leader....

brad green - he was simply outstanding. knocked himself out diving on a loose ball. then came back on and threw himself about!!

junior - again, battled hard against sam mitchell all day... had some good patches but he tried his absoltue guts out for the club.. mroe of him and the young kids would learn very quickly!!!

Our young kids were very impressive and no doubt will someday have the build of ahodge or a lewis but for the time being we have to grina nd bear it.

Time for the leadership to show true leadership!!

Where did this obsession with 'leadership through shoving' come from??? Is Champion Data keeping track of players' chest shoving stats now???

I'd probably prefer to see our players providing some run and creating space and options than have them focus on shoving people to show how tough they are.

Given how quickly the ball comes flying into our defensive 50 I'd suggest Matty Warnock is quite rightly too busy keeping tabs on Jarryd Roughead to worry about whether Campbell Brown is niggling James Strauss.

Where did this obsession with 'leadership through shoving' come from??? Is Champion Data keeping track of players' chest shoving stats now???

I'd probably prefer to see our players providing some run and creating space and options than have them focus on shoving people to show how tough they are.

Given how quickly the ball comes flying into our defensive 50 I'd suggest Matty Warnock is quite rightly too busy keeping tabs on Jarryd Roughead to worry about whether Campbell Brown is niggling James Strauss.

" Shoving", in isolation would be a ridiculous pursuit. But the fact is we were getting belted in every facet of the game, It was the first of 2010 and expectations - whether realistic or not - are an obvious result of being down for so long and the optimism arising over the off season, particularly from the club itself.

HT's point is missed, if you simply concentrate on the word "shoving". It's well and truly on the record that we have a lot of kids and these kids need examples they can look up to. Scully being cleaned up - fairly - by Roughead is one thing, but no senior player coming into support our first gamer is a disgrace and unacceptable. Simple as that.

" Shoving", in isolation would be a ridiculous pursuit. But the fact is we were getting belted in every facet of the game, It was the first of 2010 and expectations - whether realistic or not - are an obvious result of being down for so long and the optimism arising over the off season, particularly from the club itself.

HT's point is missed, if you simply concentrate on the word "shoving". It's well and truly on the record that we have a lot of kids and these kids need examples they can look up to. Scully being cleaned up - fairly - by Roughead is one thing, but no senior player coming into support our first gamer is a disgrace and unacceptable. Simple as that.

Actually, I think ID summed it up quite well.

So you wanted to see our players 'remonstrate' with Roughead for contesting a pack mark 35m out from goal??? Sounds like the fastest way possible to give away a free kick and set the worst example possible.

Where did this obsession with 'leadership through shoving' come from??? Is Champion Data keeping track of players' chest shoving stats now???

I'd probably prefer to see our players providing some run and creating space and options than have them focus on shoving people to show how tough they are.

Given how quickly the ball comes flying into our defensive 50 I'd suggest Matty Warnock is quite rightly too busy keeping tabs on Jarryd Roughead to worry about whether Campbell Brown is niggling James Strauss.

Take a small example and run with it why don't you.

Leadership is also about running, creating space, spoiling, communicating, shepherding, tackling, blocking, etc...all those things ID. Shall I continue ?

If one of our guys gets felled behind play or just off the ball, I expect someone to remonstrate or stick up for his teammate. It occurs at stoppages mostly or when the ball goes out of bounds. The Hawks will niggle, and our players stand there and take it, accept it. I'm asking to give a bit back. Show that we won't be pushed around. How many times do you see Hodge rough some of the players up, he does it superbly, then once the ball is in play he is back on song and involved in the play.

We "woos" it too many times for my liking.

So you wanted to see our players 'remonstrate' with Roughead for contesting a pack mark 35m out from goal??? Sounds like the fastest way possible to give away a free kick and set the worst example possible.

That's ridiculous.

So you wanted to see our players 'remonstrate' with Roughead for contesting a pack mark 35m out from goal??? Sounds like the fastest way possible to give away a free kick and set the worst example possible.

Given the belting we were and were always going to receive, I wanted a show of strength and support for the kid. There wasn't any. Let's not try and shift an argument from the sublime to the ridiculous, shall we?

Firstly I dont like to see our guys being roughed up.

But depends who;s doing what.

Our 1st objective is get the ball. Whos; got the ball.

Being 'sucked' in,will create a turnover.

It's up to the umpires to decide what was fair and what isnt.

If that isnt exceptable in some players eyes while in play

the best way to handle it, is when running past the culprit

in question, is to make it known 'do that again' you'll wont be walking off. We havent got enough big bodies to monster anyone, but bluff works.

If one of our guys is getting set upon,then all players should come to his aid,but, where the ball is should be the 1st priority.

Its all about chararacter building,taking care of themselves, up to a point.

If they get sucked in, then their focus isnt the ball any more.

Re 1958 GF WE GOT SUCKED IN

I agree with HT 100% and made a post saying a similar thing a couple of days ago.

You wnat to beat an opposition you cannot let them excercise thier superiority over you physically. You want to be a winner you have to act like a winner.

I think Land and possibly the coaching staff have been concentrating on the tangibles ie game plan, skills etc.

Confidence is the key area we are lacking, it affects your attack on the footy, your willingness to run, makes you fumble and second guess yourself, takes instinct away and affects your disposal. Those who play and have played know that some days you are on and some days you are off and its mostly between the ears.

I want to see more spirit and see you next tuesday out there. And you singled out those senior players rightly. I want to see some aggression. The game has changed dramatically but some this never change. You win the hard ball, tackle harder, run harder and take the game on with smart footy you win.

I hope the coaching staff has identified this and we see some spirit displayed.

HT that's the only time in this thread you have correctly identified the true examples of on-field leadership.

I didn't see any of our players 'felled behind play' on Saturday but of course if that happened there'd be an element of sticking up for each other. In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw 2 or 3 mini-melees throughout the game where we engaged in some 'shows of strength'.

Given the belting we were and were always going to receive, I wanted a show of strength and support for the kid. There wasn't any. Let's not try and shift an argument from the sublime to the ridiculous, shall we?

There wasn't even a stoppage at this play. What do you want?? The players to abandon the live ball in order to show Roughie they won't have him contesting marks like that???

Shocking example of the point you're trying to present.

It's not just about shoving, referring to your Champion Data quip.

From my OP:

What really upset me was the MFC players - in most cases the senior MFC players - lack of onfield leadership on Saturday. Hawthorn players pushing and shoving them around, yet the Mfc players just took it with no offer of retaliation. Guys like Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Campbell Brown were aggressive at the player with the ball. When they tackled the Melbourne player, they tackled the player into submission and rubbed the players faces into the ground. When they dived into packs for the ball they went in with intent and purpose. To not only obtain the ball, but hurt the opposition player. Those very players set a precedence on Saturday for Hawthorn, they set the tone and the rest of the Hawks followed suit. Yet the Melbourne senior players took a back seat. Brad Green the exception.

HT that's the only time in this thread you have correctly identified the true examples of on-field leadership.

I thought the above quote from the OP demonstrated an example of on-field leadership.

Perhaps our tackling technique aspects could improve a bit accross the board. When other teams tackle, they tackle with intent to not only disposess, but appear to really shake-up the player being tackled when going to the ground. (ie. HARD!) Making sure they leave that player out of play or make it hard for that player to resume in play with the ball in the vicinity.

We seem to tackle gently by getting the player to ground occassionally, in most cases they resume play immediately.

It might be considered a small thing in peoples views, but it's a 1% which goes along way for a team regaining their numbers in support quickly and provides another option or outlet when the ball is in dispute.

Brent Moloney

so unfair to throw him in. Never in his time at Melbourne has he played with anything but 100% guts and always gone in for his mates. He may not have been on the spot to exemplify this at any stage in the previous match but don't act like he hasn't done so before now

I can put up with the fact that our team were outplayed by a well drilled and smarter outfit in Hawthorn. Despite the Hawks missing a few of their senior players.

I can put up with dropped marks or mistakes made by some of our younger players that are finding their feet at AFL level (ie. 1st, 2nd year players).

But what I cannot stomach is this:

What really upset me was the MFC players - in most cases the senior MFC players - lack of onfield leadership on Saturday. Hawthorn players pushing and shoving them around, yet the Mfc players just took it with no offer of retaliation. Guys like Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Campbell Brown were aggressive at the player with the ball. When they tackled the Melbourne player, they tackled the player into submission and rubbed the players faces into the ground. When they dived into packs for the ball they went in with intent and purpose. To not only obtain the ball, but hurt the opposition player. Those very players set a precedence on Saturday for Hawthorn, they set the tone and the rest of the Hawks followed suit. Yet the Melbourne senior players took a back seat. Brad Green the exception.

When I see a Melbourne player being pushed around , I want to see them give it back , I want to see a Melbourne player hurt the opposition and I would love to see teammates coming into support. Not walk away or brush it off, or not remonstrate. It makes me sick. Push 'em back ! As long as it's legal it's fine. It gives a message to the opposition.

"Stick up for your club, your supporters. You're not weak. But you sure as hell show it that you are !"

The senior players should be leading the way. At the moment they're mentally weak.

TARGET TEN

Cameron Bruce. James McDonald. Brad Miller. Matthew Bate. Brent Moloney. Nathan Jones. Matthew Warnock. Mark Jamar. Aaron Davey. Jared Rivers.

These 10 players need to make a stand and lead the way for the younger 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players. After Round 1 it's exactly the opposite. I don't care if we see a couple of reports. Get tough, get aggressive, set the tone, by all means do it legally, but sure as hell make sure there are no backward steps and do your supporters proud. Doing this makes others walk taller and breeds CONFIDENCE

At least the members and supporters can go away from the game thinking, "gee, the players despite the loss actually gave something, they cared, they were aggressive, they were on the front foot, they showed the younger players how to be physical and what to do."

I'm not letting the coaching department get off lightly here either.

Communication. These senior players need to be told. Dean Bailey, you're the messenger. If you can't relay these thoughts to the senior players, something is wrong.

Some of these players have previously expressed their desire to earn back respect in the off season. Well, they've got to walk the talk now. It's no use coming out saying we're "gunna" do this "gunna" do that. At the moment their just "gunna's", not "doer's"

How important is on-field leadership ?

It's bloody essential.

So did you actually send this to the club, or are you just having a rant in a safe place where nobody with influence will ever see it?

so unfair to throw him in. Never in his time at Melbourne has he played with anything but 100% guts and always gone in for his mates. He may not have been on the spot to exemplify this at any stage in the previous match but don't act like he hasn't done so before now

Fair to say I might have expected this. I admire Brent Moloney for his aggression in alot of instances in his career to date. However, I think at times he can do more when required. I find he is hot & cold sometimes with his aggression. I recall Viney hell bent on continually involving himself when required numerous times during the game. I think Beamer goes missing in periods. That is why I included him. Good point though C&B, opinions may vary on Beamer.

So did you actually send this to the club, or are you just having a rant in a safe place where nobody with influence will ever see it?

It's an opinion. If you disagree with any of it, challenge me.

How do you know whether or not anyone with any influence will or will not see it ?

I think the FD would know as well as the rest of the football industry that the heat is on the senior members of the team (if any of the written articles are anything to go by) after Round 1, don't you ?

There wasn't even a stoppage at this play. What do you want?? The players to abandon the live ball in order to show Roughie they won't have him contesting marks like that???

Shocking example of the point you're trying to present.

You clearly miss the point, which it would seem, so do some of the senior players. Don't misread what I said please. Supporting the kids and showing solidarity, does not mean you have to fly off the handle and give away a free. It's about support, a pat on the backside, a gee up, a well done son. You have misread the spirit and intent of this thread.

Where did this obsession with 'leadership through shoving' come from??? Is Champion Data keeping track of players' chest shoving stats now???

Who gives a rats what Champion Data is keeping track of? Is that the way to win flags? Out stat everyone you play?

Did you play footy? If you had you'd KNOW that one of the MAJOR parts of footy, particularly in finals, is physicality. Watch ANY code... The only "rule" in football is the team that wants it more, wins.

Stop trying to over-intellectualise the thing and try to understand it. There's a place for brains in footy, and that's in the box on game day. Try a thing called "intuition." You don't EDUCATE a young player on how to play the game, you SHOW them. Either by telling them what to do and being there to watch them and highlight how they did something right... or you do it yourself, and then highlight how you did it right.

The OP may have been a bit indirect... asking demons players to remonstrate with other players... but I think most people would understand he's taking about being physical, making the Hawks earn it... REMINDING them that they can't push our players around without KNOWING they'll be fought back.

It doesn't matter if the remonstrator loses, it doesn't matter if they come off second best... the POINT is that a message is sent. To the opposition, and more importantly to the rest of the team. It's like saying "You may beat us on the scoreboard, and you may beat us physically... but mentally we don't drop our heads or hearts. We'll fight you to the last siren. And in a couple of years you'll see us do this when we're YOUR size... when that day comes, I hope you remember this." The current-day Hawks were smashed physically and a physical reaction was demanded by coaches and Hawk luminaries alike. And now look at them. One of the more feared and physical outfits going around. Would that we could be as god as them in this regard. You think they got like that by just racking up champion data stats?"

As a kid, my intuition taught me everything my experience and education gave me no information on. When a senior ball player went in hard, my intuition told me that if I didn't do the same, I would let them down/make a fool out of myself/pay for it later with a lack of respect from my teammates or coaches... and worst of all we'd lose the game.

Even during ND's era, he knew we lacked in this way and he OPENLY tried to recruit players to fix it. Moorcroft and Pickett being two good examples. Neither of them worked, obviously, (Pickett did for one season) which is all the more reason we need to see it from homegrown players.

I've had it up to here with this miss congeniality approach. I want flags, and I want us to bruise and hurt opposition clubs who stand in our way. I daresay Sylvia's parents wouldn't mind that he broke his jaw being the toughnut he is. And I know most of our fans love that he has the balls to play like a man. Likewise I reckon if we lay out a few opposition players on the way to finals, I daresay they would respect us more for it... not the other way around. I'd love to hear about THEM hearing footsteps, and inspiring fear the way Neita did in arguably the toughest player ever to play modern footy.

HT that's the only time in this thread you have correctly identified the true examples of on-field leadership.

I didn't see any of our players 'felled behind play' on Saturday but of course if that happened there'd be an element of sticking up for each other. In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw 2 or 3 mini-melees throughout the game where we engaged in some 'shows of strength'.

The thing here is that Melbourne just don't seem to hurt their opponents in general play. When a Hawk tackled a Demon, he pinned his arms and slammed him into the dirt. Probably he added a bit of a wrestle and pushed his face into the turf as he was getting up too. When a Demon tackled a Hawk, he held onto him. There's a very big difference in attitude there. One side is playing to intimidate their opponents, while the other is (if we're honest with ourselves) soft. The Hawks had no fear because even if they were caught they weren't going to get hurt.

It's times like these I really wish we still had Byron Pickett on our team. Sure, he got suspended a lot, probably wasn't the best player, but opponents were afraid of him. Who do we have now who can fill that role?

It's an opinion. If you disagree with any of it, challenge me.

How do you know whether or not anyone with any influence will or will not see it ?

I think the FD would know as well as the rest of the football industry that the heat is on the senior members of the team (if any of the written articles are anything to go by) after Round 1, don't you ?

Oh, I don't disagree with much in the post. It's just that it's Monday, my team got thrashed on the weekend and I'm flat broke ie. I tend to be a little snarky on days like this. So when I see a title like that I immediately think why tell us? Isn't it better to send this to the club on the off chance that they'll actually take it on board? Not that I think they would.